To UL or not to UL...

[paco]

Hey,

I want to get some honest opinions from people on UL and the standard of the course down there. I have hear many things from fellow gamsat-ers, my lecturers and from doctors that have varied from "UL is ok for what it is" to "You are better off taking a year off and applying again if you only get UL", the latter being the opinion of a respected doctor who is a family friend.

It is the lowest points - is that for a reason? I hear also there are problems with continuity of contact with teaching staff as there is only limited faculty staff and most lecturers come in from local hospitals or have to come over from London, do their teaching and then head off.

On the plus side, I was thinking that living in Limerick has to be cheaper than Dublin and as the course costs so much saving 100/200 euro a month on rent would be very welcome!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated..

Paco

[conorjudge]

Hey Paco,

In response to your post above, here are a couple of points that may help you make your decision.

With respect to the points difference there are more places, 30 this year going up to 60 by 2012. This affects supply and demand like the CAO system, granted there is also more demand for traditional medical schools given the teaching curriculum. UL GEMS uses a PBL approach that is radically different from traditional Irish medical school teaching.

This method of learning (PBL) is very suited for graduate students but not all graduate students would like to learn this way. This is clearly stated from the offset and is stressed during the open day (March 11th). If this method of learning doesn't suit your learning style don't put UL down on the CAO as you'll have a less than enjoyable time in medical school.

With regards to the faculty, they run an open door policy and are available for consultation any time but don't chase us up as we don't need to be spoon fed at this stage of our education.

The use of guest lectures is a very effective way of learning current, up to date and evidence based practices as these persons are at the coal face of their speciality. But like all medical school not all lectures are as good as each other.

The cost of living is cheaper in Limerick but this should not be the major factor in deciding in coming to Limerick.

We are all aware that Limerick has its detractors and there will be resistance from traditionalists. The course is only in its third year and we are confident that we will be as capable and qualified as any other medical graduates.

Don't forget that this course is accredited by the Irish Medical Council which accredits all other medical schools in Ireland.

Hope this helps, come along to the open day and make up your own mind.

Paul and Conor (2nd year UL)

[couldntgetaname]

"UL is ok for what it is"

If you could expand on that or be a bit more specific it could be very helpful - the preformed concerns of existing medics may be entirely unfounded. The more specifics that we can examine, the better.

It is the lowest points - is that for a reason?

Yes. I'd say the main one is that applicants hear a lot of rumour and innuendo from doctors who have archaic and obsolete notions of what medical education should look like. They had to sit through thousands of lectures so that must be the only way to do things. New and different = scary and dangerous. As it has been so shall it ever be and all that jazz.

I hear also there are problems with continuity of contact with teaching staff as there is only limited faculty staff and most lecturers come in from local hospitals or have to come over from London, do their teaching and then head off.

Many, probably most, of our lectures come from clinicians who finished a morning clinic, grabbed lunch and headed to the lecture hall. They stand up, say their bit, and head back to the ward.

They teach us things they want us to know so that we don't annoy them or their patients when we eventually hit their teams on placement. They're less concerned with teaching medical students, they come in to prepare future colleagues.

On the plus side, I was thinking that living in Limerick has to be cheaper than Dublin and as the course costs so much saving 100/200 euro a month on rent would be very welcome!

Being blunt about it, cost of living is probably the worst reason anyone could have for coming to UL. By all means choose between UCC and UCD or Surgeons on that basis, but our course is so different to theirs that you really do need to want the *course* rather than the *place* to be coming here. Otherwise you'll hate it, you'll annoy the hell out of people in your PBL groups, and you won't have fun at all.

UL is by no means a Pandora-esque vision of perfection, but I think it's probably safe to say that most of the negative opinions out there are rooted at least in part in unfounded speculation or prejudice. We could probably do with some of the mythbusting thread in here to look at specific criticisms.

[katie1980]

Hi,

I wondering if anyone currently in UL could tell me if internship positions have been organised yet. I have been lead to believe that this may be a problem upon graduation..

[paco]

hey guys,

i really appreciate you taking the time from our studies to respond to my queries. gamsat prep is going ok (i think) but it is a weird exam to prepare for..

you guys gave me a wealth of information but i have been talking to some more folk and i still have to decide on my preferences.

i like the idea of pbl, i have read up about it and it seems innovative and interesting. i know some uk uni's use it too and it is proving successful. i suppose side by side pbl might be more attractive for grad entry than sitting in a lecture hall all day.

but while i appreciate the benefits of pbl, your responses raise some concerns for me:

a. points
Places were offered last year to people on 56 points.. which is not a high score by anyone's reckoning.. is limerick the "safety" for people and who want dublin or cork and didnt do so hot in the gamsat but didnt want to wait around for another year?
"If this method of learning doesn't suit your learning style don't put UL down on the CAO as you'll have a less than enjoyable time in medical school" (apologies i cant do the cool speech bubbles)
There must be a strong cohort within the school who actually dont want to be there, is this reflected in the atmosphere there? how do people settle in there? is the support to adjust to the new learning style? understand from academic and student services staff?
"Otherwise you'll hate it, you'll annoy the hell out of people in your PBL groups, and you won't have fun at all." (apologies i cant do the cool speech bubbles) - that is the voice of experience right there! is the fact people dont want to be there a big issue? how do you deal with a disruptive/disinterested pbl group member(s)? kick the person out? After all you are paying a lot of cash for this education, you dont want your learning compromised to any extent.


b. lecturers
i suppose faculty back-up is not essential once you are taught what you need to know. Are both conorjudge and couldntgetaname in the same class? there seems to be a contradiction between "Many, probably most, of our lectures come from clinicians who finished a morning clinic, grabbed lunch and headed to the lecture hall. They stand up, say their bit, and head back to the ward." and "With regards to the faculty, they run an open door policy and are available for consultation any time" maybe there is a change between years but I think you are both 2008 entry?

c. reputation
when i first started asking about the medical school, i was told "ul folk are very defensive" and i see that from the responses! there is nothing wrong with having pride in your school and in fact it is a really good thing!
is the reputation that bad? do the medical school run pr classes? i have heard some negative stuff but also some positive stuff. Will the ul people always be regarded as “those who could not get above 60 in the gamsat” (that might be a little unfair, but again i am just passing on what i have heard) or “having a chip on their shoulder” – stand up couldntgetaname lol!
in reality as junior doctors we will be at the mercy of our consultants etc who will have been trained the old-school way. i know that rcsi, ucd and ucc mix the grad entry students with the traditional entry students after year 2 (or earlier) and all students sit the same final exams. this is to ensure there is no perceived double standard. you can argue the “the preformed concerns of existing medics may be entirely unfounded” and that there is “a lot of rumour and innuendo from doctors who have archaic and obsolete notions of what medical education should look like” but the truth is that these
doctors who have “had to sit through thousands of lectures” and think “that must be the only way to do things. New and different = scary and dangerous” will be our superiors and decide if we should be recruited.

I think dismissing this as an attitude of “As it has been so shall it ever be and all that jazz” is foolish.

d. spooning
“don't chase us up as we don't need to be spoon fed at this stage of our education” from this i am guessing that ul would be more suited to those with a science background rather that those who have never studied the sciences? a wider question would be is the whole grad-entry more suited to this with a science background?

e. the joke that wasn’t actually a joke
is the open day is march 11th? 9 days before the gamsat exam? and it is being held in the business school? surely the medical school facilities should be on show?


i have been pointed in my questions, i like the idea of pbl and i don’t think there is a “bad” medical school in ireland (well except trinity haha)

one final question, did many of the current ul students honestly had ul down as their first preference?

cheers,

paco

[ULStudent]

Places were offered last year to people on 56 points.. which is not a high score by anyone's reckoning.. is limerick the "safety" for people and who want dublin or cork and didnt do so hot in the gamsat but didnt want to wait around for another year?
"If this method of learning doesn't suit your learning style don't put UL down on the CAO as you'll have a less than enjoyable time in medical school" (apologies i cant do the cool speech bubbles)
There must be a strong cohort within the school who actually dont want to be there, is this reflected in the atmosphere there? how do people settle in there?

Many people in UL had the course down as their first choice and I don't think that the difference in points between Cork and Limerick reflects greater demand for Cork really. I can't recall the exact points for entry into each last year but I know that they were close and bear in mind that UL have more places for EU students than Cork.

It is likely though that the points for the Dublin schools will always be higher for 2 reasons
1) They offer fewer places.
2) The demographics of the country are such that demand for all things close to Dublin is likely to exceed demand in areas away from Dublin, including medical school.

Given this, it is inevitable that UL will be what you refer to as a "safety" school for some who are determined to do medicine and who are unwilling to wait to get into a Dublin school. However this cohort, I would say, is not a sizeable portion of the class and even those who had UL listed last on their application are quite settled in the school. Certainly, I have not perceived any discontent beyond the usual stuff that goes hand in hand with heavy workloads and long hours. However, as with all areas of life it is likely that in any group there will be those who are unsatisfied with where they are.

how do you deal with a disruptive/disinterested pbl group member(s)? kick the person out? After all you are paying a lot of cash for this education, you don't want your learning compromised to any extent.

Group work can be challenging, I'll admit. It is possible that within groups that there will be clashes of personality and differences of opinion. Group work is an integral part of medicine and learning to mediate these challenges as part of an investigative team with a common goal in spite of different opinions is part and parcel of a medical career. I have not been in any group with a disruptive PBL member but PBL is monitored by a facilitator to ensure that a group is not dominated or disrupted by any one person.

On the point of PBL and your reference to "spooning", a lot of how you react to PBL will depend on your own personality - if you are not a "people person" you probably won't like it (then again, medicine probably isn't for you then anyway, well there's always pathology I suppose ;-)). If you are uncomfortable with others knowing more than you and uncomfortable learning from others (along with the primary source material), then you won't like it. This sort of ties in with your question on whether PBL is more suited to those with a science background - again a lot of it comes down to your personality and attitude. Are you the kind of person who will come out of a session where you were sitting in with a biochemistry Ph.D. or a physiotherapist or a pharmacist or whoever may be in the group, someone who seemed to have a good grasp of the case before it had even begun, and think "I can't do this, there's no point, I'll never catch up etc."? Or are you the kind of person who will come out of a such a session and say "well, the stuff so and so was explaining is very interesting, I must go off now and research it so that next time I can explain the concept as well as they did"?

In fact, most of how you get on won't depend on which school you attend, it will depend on your attitude, if you can handle extreme work loads with out getting too stressed, including being able to handle it when you fall behind in an area (and you will fall behind in some areas some times), and if you aren't too bothered about displaying your own ignorance on a topic, and most of all enjoy a challenge, you'll get along okay.

Regarding your confusion on the comments of conorjudge and couldntgetaname on the lecturers, they were talking about two different sets of people. conorjudge was referring to the core faculty, while couldntgetaname was referring to the specialist clinical lecturers who mostly come in from the regional hospital here. Every case we do has a resource contact allocated to it, usually the person who gives the specialist lectures for that week and this person is contactable if we have any further questions regarding the case, but in reality this is very rarely necessary as the core texts, web resources, lectures, core faculty and fellow PBL members usually provide sufficient coverage. Lack of available information is certainly the last thing anyone planning on coming to UL should worry about.

On your point about being told that "UL folk are very defensive", well, it is a new med school, with a new way of doing things. It is inevitable that there will be questions raised about the course, e.g. the questions posed by yourself. In addition to questions, criticisms will arise, and obviously people who chose to come to UL will be of the opinion that the way they are doing things is the way to go, and the other schools will be of the opinion that their way is the way to go. As such, it is easy to see how UL students could appear defensive. Of course, rumour and conjecture are inevitable when information is being passed around and countering any false information could also contribute to an image of defensiveness.

On the issue of our future superiors being trained in the older schools, well, our school of origin shouldn't be much of an issue really. In most careers your previous work history and achievements are the important factors. In medicine, this will mostly be your performance in previous posts and research achievements. How many employers are overly concerned with leaving cert results? An undergrad medical education is just a stepping stone to further training which will be the biggest determinant of your success, the key in the door so to speak.

Even if you look at Irish hospitals currently, a large proportion of our NCHDs are graduates of colleges located in a variety of places around the world, far more exotic and far flung than Limerick, and this has not hindered their progression.

Regarding the open evening, I don't think there are tours of the facilities, mostly because the medical school building is currently mid construction, to be completed in 2011. The school is currently housed temporarily in the "main building" where the clinical skills rooms, PBL rooms and faculty offices are located. I think that the reason the open evening is hosted in the business school is simply because it has a very large lecture hall suited to holding a large crowd.

On your final question, I can only speak for myself.

My preferences were UCD, UL, UCC and RCSI.

My situation is unusual in that attending medical school was not something I had given a great deal of thought to until the opportunity presented itself. It might seem strange to some, as it has been my impression that going to medical school has been the realisation of a dream for many but the way I ended up studying medicine is quite different to most. The existence of graduate medicine and the GAMSAT was something I became aware of only a couple of days before the closing date for GAMSAT applications. I had been thinking before that for a while that the area I was in was not for me in the long term and that a change of direction down the line might be in order and the idea of graduate medicine intrigued me. I approached the GAMSAT, as a bit of an experiment really, thought I just see what it was like in case this idea of medicine as a possible change ever grew into something more than a passing interest. So, without much research done on schools I decided my preference mostly on other factors.

I chose UCD first, because it was in Dublin not because it was UCD. I had lived there for a while before and wanted to spend some time there. Dublin is a great city

UL next because it was closer to my home than Cork which would be a nightmare to get to and from.

RCSI last because I think that one of the great things about college is the fact that you get to meet people from a wide variety of backgrounds, studying all manner of things (that's the theory anyway, if you can ever find the time). You don't get this in RCSI, it's all health professionals. Plus there's more choice in a bigger university regarding clubs and societies.

Of course after receiving an offer for UL, I thought out whether or not I really wanted to study medicine and read up about the PBL approach and decided that this wasn't really an issue for me at all. I was a bit indifferent to the PBL vs. didactic debate. I can say now though, that I am grateful that I am in UL as the thought of returning to days filled morning to night with lectures is more than I can take.

And in case you're wondering I'm not from a science/health background.

[couldntgetaname]

Places were offered last year to people on 56 points.. which is not a high score by anyone's reckoning.. is limerick the "safety" for people and who want dublin or cork and didnt do so hot in the gamsat but didnt want to wait around for another year?

Possibly. There is, as mentioned elsewhere, a significant 'Dublin uber alles' component to preferences. That, coupled to the increased number of places, means UL will have a lower points score than the other unis - supply and demand. That said, there are plenty of people in all years of the course with gamsat scores in the high 60s who had their pick of courses.

I think going forward as awareness of grad-entry medicine grows the spread of applicants and thus the points distribution will level out, like the traditional courses. Either that or a pattern will emerge in terms of personality types or learning styles [if I'm not mistaken there are several psychometric studies on the go looking for patterns already].

"Otherwise you'll hate it, you'll annoy the hell out of people in your PBL groups, and you won't have fun at all." (apologies i cant do the cool speech bubbles) - that is the voice of experience right there!

The voice of observation rather that experience - personally I love PBL, but some people hate it. Some people just seem 'made' for a more didactic approach, and they really don't have fun with the independence of PBL.

At the end of the day, med school is tough enough without people causing more hardship for themselves by signing up for a course that won't suit them. It's like ordering a takeaway - there's no point in someone ordering a hot meat dish if they're a vegetarian who hates spicy food, they won't like it and their dinner will be ruined.

is the fact people dont want to be there a big issue? how do you deal with a disruptive/disinterested pbl group member(s)? kick the person out?

From what I've seen, apart from the rare and inevitable personality clashes, problems are self limiting. Disinterested group members either don't show up [making them a faculty problem] or show up and stay quiet [making them nobody's problem] or show up and cause a brief ruckus [making them a fairy easy problem for 7 other educated grownups to shush].

People with a tendency to be 'difficult' in PBL are identified very early on, and the group ethos means this is shared around and everyone is prepared for it. The group tutors [technically they're only facilitators, but that sounds like a silly word] also keep an eye on things.

Nobody gets kicked out of groups - out in the real world we'll have to work with whatever team we're in, and part of the PBL process is learning to deal with imperfect groups.

Are both conorjudge and couldntgetaname in the same class?

Yep, class of 2012 FTW.

To clarify, core faculty on campus are on hand like any other course. The external lecturers are not quite so handy, but in general they are very enthusiastic and happily respond to emails, or hang around after lectures.

[QUOTE=paco;72882
when i first started asking about the medical school, i was told "ul folk are very defensive" and i see that from the responses!
[/quote]

In fairness, that's inevitable. If people started pushing the idea that surgeons or UCD had dodgy courses, based on hearsay and conjecture with no basis, you'd very quickly find that they seem defensive too.

Will the ul people always be regarded as “those who could not get above 60 in the gamsat” (that might be a little unfair, but again i am just passing on what i have heard) or “having a chip on their shoulder” – stand up couldntgetaname lol!

Undoubtedly there will be a cohort of people who see this as the 'special' medical school for a long time to come. If that leads them to underestimate us, all the better. Ultimately clinical competence will be the deciding factor, and so far UL is holding its own.

i am guessing that ul would be more suited to those with a science background rather that those who have never studied the sciences? a wider question would be is the whole grad-entry more suited to this with a science background?

There is definitely an initial adjustment period for those with a weaker science background, but it's brief. As an example, the biochemists quickly find that the four page synthesis pathway they spent a year memorising might sound very impressive in week 3, but by christmas they've not only forgotten it entirely but also realised it wasn't of any great use to begin with. Meanwhile the philosophy grad has been getting to grips with the much more straightforward medically relevant pathway and nails the exam question just as well as the biochemist while having had lots of extra time to devote to other topics.

At least in terms of this course, I would even argue that people with more of an arts/humanities background suffer less of a culture shock switching to the more independent learning style - spending days on end in the library with 9-10 contact hours a week is nothing new.

one final question, did many of the current ul students honestly had ul down as their first preference?

I know I did, but I don't have a clue as to the overall breakdown - can't remember if the CAO put out a table or not.

[earthworm-jim]

Well lads, very interesting comments being made, as a current UL student, I agree with all that has been said by my colleagues. UL faces an uphill battle to justify its existence within the very traditional and change adverse medical school fraternity, the proverbial black sheep of the family, in some ways this is to our advantage. This is demonstrated during lectures given by some specialists who start off by treating us as if we had just fell off the stupid wagon and they soon discover via a quick few questions they throw out in a nonchalant manner that we are no team of wild west hillbillies out for the day. In saying that they are the minority, but it’s very satisfying to show that what we do works.
With respect to the GAMSAT score, the GAMSAT exam is the weirdest exam in the world, I would honestly say you could sit it three consecutive times and get a very varied scores, it’s a poor indicator in my opinion of your future propensity to be a doctor, but it’s the best we have at the moment. Often people score highly by getting extremely high scores in the essays and could do atrocious in the science. Some people take a year to study the GAMSAT and some show up on the day, both could have science backgrounds and both get the same score, some people sit the exam several times to find they are getting lower scores each time. Other's, hand over 1000's in grinds and still get no better. At the end of the day if you get in nobody cares what you got, it has no correlation, the lowest score to get in means nothing, you could infer more information from reading tea leaves, as no research has been done on how they correlate, its all perception - now there is a summer studentship for anyone interested!!
As regards group work, its tough at times, but that’s what happens when you work with people, it would be harder to do it alone and its great to bounce ideas off each other in the beginning and then confirm information during feedbacks. There is always the one or two antagonistic individuals that you wish would transfer to some other med school and stop causing you premature grey hairs and malignant hypertension, but they are ubiquitous to every school and usually commit some howler of a faux pas while trying to convey their superior thinking, much to our enjoyment and give us some reason to justify not throwing them out the window.
Regarding science versus non science; I come from a science background and I have to say it’s a revelation to see how quickly a non science student takes up something I spent 16 hours learning in a previous didactic existence, plus they ask questions that you take for granted as you assume you know it. Limerick was my number one choice; I had initial doubts about even coming to med school having previously been offered a very well paid job prior to starting. Its as enjoyable as I thought it would be, its a lot of hard graft, but the opportunity to work as a doctor at the end is well worth it, at the end of the day I totally agree with UL student that nobody cares where you qualify (Akin to LC points or even school (private versus community)), its how good you are at your job and your future propensity to deliver as both a doctor/educator/researcher that will decide how far you go and that will be shaped by your education. In my opinion being a graduate is one benefit we will all have irrespective of medical school and second coming from a new, dynamic and innovative course gives us an added flexibility that I don't think exists in other college courses - whether this is true or not only time will tell, but I would be slow to underestimate Limerick graduates.
PS here is a reference to a paper published about the demographics of the first cohort in Limerick...
Ir J Med Sci. 2008 Mar;177(1):19-22. Epub 2008 Feb 7.

[jicjoc]

I couldnt see myself studying anywhere else, under any other format, with any other group.

Now granted i havent met any of the lecturers from other colleges, but if they are as driven and demanding as the core bunch that run UL then the other colleges must be very good indeed.

Science vs non-science backround is a non-issue really.

Its all about your own motivation.

UL is based on two things.
PBL and Self Directed Learning.

PBL first:
What this means (maybe others will disagree) is that twice a week, you in effect have a 1 hour exam on your knowledge base for that week. In PBL report back, you must stand up and give an account of what you have learned for the last couple of days, in front of 9 of your peers and a qualified tutor. You cant fluff it. Personally, i feel it is the best way of learning i have come across.
It is informal, continuous assessment. And i love it.
Some of the debates we have are really amazing for people on wk 22 of a Med course.

SDL:
Well, what this means is that after PBL, you're cut loose...
There are didactic lectures, and they're good too. But why bother going to them?
Can anyone honestly say that they really 'learn' anything from a 50 minute didactic lecture. There are so many cliches about learning, and for the most part i find they hold true 'You only learn by doing' etc.
After 10 minutes in a didactic lecture, most people are doing a Homer on it.
So what SDL means is 'its up to you'. Quiet daunting at first. By October last year i wanted out of UL. Come January, I wanted more... More SDL and no Didactic.



I remember the advice the current second years gave to us back on the first Wednesday of Sept 09, and I've wondered what advice I would give (if asked) to 1st years on 1st Sept 2010...

Probably 5 things

1. Welcome and congrats
2. Holiday's over. This is the real deal. You will not work as hard again in your life at anything
3. Give it time
4. When you feel like blaming a tutor, UL, PBL, the river Shannon etc : Take a good look in the mirror first. All the facilities are here
5. Try not to love it - You'll fail. And thats probably the only time you'll hear that word for a long, long time!

The skills you gain from PBL/SDL are going to be SO, SO important in your career. This is such an understated advantage of UL. Spoon fed students do ok when Mammy's around. Will Mammy hold your hand on the wards?

All the best Guys...
J

[jicjoc]

In terms of judging UL : Give it probably 6 years. The first couple of years of any new course take time. Thats common sense. Get rid of things that dont work, add things that do work... Rome wasnt built in a day and all that

My own opinion is that by 2015 or 2016, when about 4 crops of UL Meds have passed out, the other Med schools will have an awful lot of soul searching to do

I see there was a idea put out there that UL was for people wouldnt get over '60'... Lol... There are a few high 70s here. More places mean lower points, nothing else...