Telegraph Article on UKCAT

**hello_doris** · 22-02-2010, 10:36 PM

... I imagine a fair few will have read the 'im applying to medical school' book that is ' trust me im a junior doctor ' .... (those who havnt Amazon.co.uk: Low Prices in Electronics, Books, Sports Equipment & more) ... and i imagine some of you will regularly read the author, max pemberton's column in the telegraph. ( it's a standard monday procrastination activity for me)

today there was an article on the UKCAT:
Moves to encourage diversity of medical students will not make better doctors - Telegraph

I agree - all the UKCAT tested was my ability to use a calculator and to refrain from shouting at the man sitting next to me reading his driving theory test questions out loud, three times.

At the time i did think that it was a huge money making scam which had no relevence to whether or not an individual could potentially become a good doctor. Yes, it is obvious that medical students need to be intelligent but is spotting a pattern in a set of shapes really an accurate way of determining this?

anyway - what do you think? ... and what would be an alternative to the UKCAT?

**foxyamy** · 23-02-2010, 09:27 PM

In my humble opinion, the best way to diversify but keep a high standard of applicants would be to go the US route and make it all graduate entry. That way it would encourage people from wider backgrounds, but you would obviously have had to prove your mettle in the university environment rather than just at school, then that way everyone is on a pretty even keel and it really is about what you can do rather than your school.

**foxyamy** · 23-02-2010, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by BeMyEnemy

LOL I totally wanted to say that but I thought I would get eaten alive on this board and didn't want to end up with another 23 page thread with grads fighting school leavers :P

Haha - well, I am just brave. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with school leavers doing medicine, I just think that increasing the number of doctors trained through grad entry would increase variety.

**foxyamy** · 23-02-2010, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by BeMyEnemy

Yeah you're braver than me on this subject. Last time I dared mention it was a little controversial.

The GMC were looking at doing this, or so I read. Apparently it's feared that the cost would put people off. Well, yes, obviously the cost is off-putting - but we're all still here applying, aren't we? I can certainly testify that I am not a wealthy individual by any means, though I know I will find a way to do it. Surely the cost, if anything, is likely to seperate those who are dedicated from those who just like the idea.

Same here. I'm sure they could come up with some kind of loan scheme rather than the current funding they offer on the 4-year course, because it's not like with your normal student loans, where plenty of people don't get a job and pay them back, and I'm sure that wouldn't stop people applying - there are already a heap of grads applying to the five year without the loans and stuff. I also think it would be beneficial, as it would give people a chance to get the whole uni thing out of their system without jeapordising their medical career, as the first year of other courses doesn't really count in quite the same way.

Anyway, I am prepared to get ripped apart for my views - bring it on!!!

**Chwirkytheappleboy** · 24-02-2010, 02:51 AM

UKCAT bad
Graduate-only entry good

**Singh.Simran** · 24-02-2010, 05:23 AM

Well, just muscling in on a big grad pat each other on the back..

Why should people be SO dedicated they have to take far more degrees (already with the 2 or 3 that medicine entails) and get into far more debt (with the massive debt that....) than any other profession?

It's obviously a decent way to train doctors, and on the job vocational training is where you learn things.. not another 3 years of uni!

I'm sorry but this column is poorly researched and rather presumptive (i reckon he had some financial aid in his education somewhere) - the actual evidence says
1. Pupils from independent schools, while having greater chances of getting in, actually do worse at uni. By a good 5-10%.
2. The UKCAT is neither good for selecting degree performance nor job performance
(The BMAT is alright for the former, again awful for the latter).

Basically these tests are just a way for the admissions people to choose, because so many are so similar now (reading the same books and using the same advice from "certain internet sites" doesn't help!)

**Faye101** · 24-02-2010, 05:15 PM

I think its laughable that you think graduate-only entry would DIVERSIFY the group of people at medical school. How could this possibly be the case? The whole issue of diversifying med school was brought up in the first place because it was seen as a privilege for the rich, privately schooled elite! Can you not see that there would be similar issues if people HAD to do a whole other degree before med school. Look at how much debt American doctors are in when they start their careers! Its all well and good saying that if people were really committed they would find a way to pay for it, but that just sounds to me like the people who are saying that have never really experienced true hardship in their lives. The fact is that some people, no matter how qualified and passionate they are, would simply not be able to afford it. I think if gradute entry was the only way to get into med school the UK would be losing out on a massive number of potentially amazing doctors.

**hello_doris** · 24-02-2010, 06:11 PM

Really interesting debate going on here....

Just wanted to add a suggestion - there are positives and negatives to the grad entry/UG entry medicine routes .... so what do you think about the european/australian/nz (i think) route ...

All prospective medics are accepted onto a biology/biochem/general science kind of course, then those who would like to go on to medicine are alloted places based on their grades, extracurricular activities and participation in first year university life. Graduates, on the basis they have already taken a degree can apply for this too.

Perhaps this would level the playing field? ... same university courses, same lecturers, same oppurtunity. Each candidate has a fair chance to excell and earn thier place ?

**Faye101** · 24-02-2010, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by BeMyEnemy

Is a family of three with a baby living on <10k a year enough like "true hardship" for you? Because that was me during my undergrad. Sweeping statements like that just make you look silly. I'm pretty sure if you asked the grads on this board, none of them would tell you they came from a charmed life.

I didn't mean to cause you any offence, I'm sorry. That is great that you managed to cope with that during your undergrad. The fact is though not everyone could cope with that, even if they are extremely committied to becoming a doctor. If would not be fair to take away the opportunity to study medicine from so many people by making them do another degree first. Having read your previous posts in this thread, you've been guilty of a few sweeping statements yourself.

**Faye101** · 24-02-2010, 09:56 PM

I really think you're over simplifying the whole issue. You were able to do what you've done, which is great. That doesn't mean that other people, with there individual situations, would be able to. You are generalising. Saying that people who don't feel they can handle the debt studying medicine would build up are less dedicated is a massive generalisation. I don't think we are going to agree on this issue.

As for grad entry medicine getting rid of good schools grooming kids for entry to medicine. True, it probably would. But I'm not sure if that is the best way to go about getting rid of this inequality.