Research like this should be replicated across medical schools heavy on the UKCAT

[Traumatised]

Ok Jubzy with all due respect here is my solution:

1 Remove the concessionary title of doctor the MB Chb is only a level 11 qualification
2 Half the salaries of senior doctors
3 Exempt doctors from the EWTD
4 Give nurses and others the right to authorise pescriptions

Welcome to the real world!! And if admission tutors cant handle the pressure back to the lottery solution

[Dick Cheney]

Traumatised, what you suggest is already happening. There is a natural trend for healthcare to become more systematic and protocol based. This systematising of healthcare facilitates roles previously performed by doctors to be performed by technicians. Some of the technicians have grandiose names such a paramedics and prescribing nurses but technicians they are. In not so many years (30?), doctors as we understand them will not exist.

[krazyfish]

you know guys, i have spoken to university lecturers and professors, and they say that the sheer amount of work that the admissions tutors have to do to select applicants is overwhelming. The sheer volume of applications, A* grades, excellent PS (that were probably wrote by proefessionals) means that inevitably, there are always ratios of around 15:1 (exaggeration here, but u get what i mean).
So really, they have no choicce but to use a DEselection procedure, yes, i said deselection because in actual fact, that's what it is.
The other alternative to UKCAT is to just get all the applications that pass the minimum entry requirements, and then THROW THEM UP IN THEW AIR; the ones that the admissions tutors catch will be the lucky applications that make it through to med school. (im not joking, this is what my lecturer said).

Objection! Birmingham have been fine without selection tests for years. but even they are now "actively considering" the GAMSAT etc. So it seems that if the trends increase, and medicine sees record-high application numbers, then these deselection tests will be set in stone. theres no point arguing about them, the unis wont listen.

i dont know, im rambling now.

Interesting anecdote, but seriously disturbing, about throwing the applications in the air. Not to sound blunt or direct or anything, but shouldn't the admissions already know what they are getting into? Receiving thousands of applications is overwhelming, yes, but they should know. Its like as if a traffic cop complaining that there he or she is overwhelmed by the amount of incoming cars that need to be told to go or stop. If they must use an alternative, you say, to the UKCAT, why not use a better more comprehensive test?

I know there is no point arguging, but I was merely pointing out the research that was published about the predictive value of the UKCAT. If enough of this research gets replicated, and similar results continue to suggest no correlation whatsoever, the universities will have to listen at some point. Being that this is the 3rd year (correct me if I'm wrong) that the UKCAT is introduced, it might still take a while. If more research show similar results, the universities will listen.

[krazyfish]

I'm as sceptical about the UKCAT as most of you are, but this paper really needs to be taken in context. The UKCAT has been proposed as a method to judge who will make good future doctors. It makes no prediction that these people need to perform particularly well in medical school. Indeed I'm not overly sure many people who do excellent academically in medical school (especially 1st year) necessarily make the better doctors.

As far as I'm aware, this research is ongoing towards looking at the 3rd year of this cohort - at least a good few months away! With 3rd year beginning to turn clinical, this will probably have a bit more weight.

Regardless - which impacts more on you lot - this isn't going to be quite enough to convince many Unis to get rid of the UKCAT altogether. Whether they'll alter how it's used - who knows.

Still, interesting reading.

On one hand, if the UKCAT does not make predictions on how people will do in medical school, then why use it? I'm sure the exam was designed to serve a similar purpose as the MCAT, LSAT, GMAT or GAMSAT as a useful indicator of one's potential in graduate school.

If the UKCAT was designed to see if people could become good future doctors, then it has some serious design flaws. Namely:

Verbal - Even blindly guessing, you have 1/3 of chance of getting it correct. Yeah, my point exactly. Name me another test designed to see if people will become good doctors that has this kind of design construct.

Quantitative - Math level is real easy. But testing condition? Not so. I doubt physicians would constantly need to make decisions in seconds (which is what you need to do if you actually want to attempt every single problem in the test), especially if you are in internal medicine where your patients come in by the appointment. Maybe this section is better suited to screen for candidates intended for the emergency room, where quick decisions are made all the time, more frequently than a clinic.

Abstract - Tests one ability to recognize patterns when encountering foreign objects. Sure, but it does not mean that if you can't see the pattern between # of right angles and circles, you can't recognize patterns in real life. Lacks real construct validity here.

Decision Analysis - Tests how well one can interpret different data or medical history when presented in different, unfamiliar formats. Similar to the abstract design flaw. If you can't strictly follow the verbal translations of the codes (including too many meanings or too less meanings), it doesn't mean one will be less adequate to read medical history. I would be more worried about not knowing enough, rather than what is presented. Chances are, you will get a good idea of what is presented, but if you know too less, its no use.

My point is that no entrance exam is perfect, and I can understand why universities want to use this test. Its not entirely bad, but its not the best either. A good decision is hard to make, given all the admission factors, but we can all conclude that the best decision should always be made.

Given that there are arguable flaws of the UKCAT, placing such a high emphasis on it (like a no wiggle room cut off) is not exactly what we can agree as the best decision for a test lacking in construct validity. It should be used in conjunction with everything else if they have to use it.

[Traumatised]

Dick Cheney- Not thee Dick Cheney? Thanks for your insight into the future of the medical profession but why should this take 30 years? I dont think our nations finances can wait that long.

[flarestar]

I agree with Krazyfish. The UKCAT should not be the sole indicator for getting an interview for those uni's with cut-offs. An aptitude test cannot be an entry requirement for medicine alone.

Hmmm maybe they should take the C out of UKCAT so it become UKAT since it's not really clinically related.

However how else do you cut down the number of applicants? I also don't think adding a science element to the UKCAT is any better. I took three sciences at A-level I think that's inidcator enough of my science ability. The only thing the science section in the BMAT tests is how quickly can you answer basic science questions whilst checking your understanding of it. It seems to me your A-levels do the science half and the UKCAT tests the quickness half. However I did like the Essay writing section since it tests how well you can organise and consicely write and format an ethical argument which is atleast science realted if not medically related. Atleast it would make some kind of a good indicator on how well of a doctor you may become.

Ah well those are my thoughts.

[Professor Higgins]

The UKCAT attempts to measure certain innate abilities. The fact that testees (as it were) can improve their score significantly by preparation combined with the evidence that it does not predict academic performance is reason enough to say that the UKCAT is bogus. The thing is, so is selection by exam results, personal statement and 'caring experience'. From my rather extensive experience, most doctors are crap. I've met a quite a few good ones, but I bet you couldn't predict this from their exam results or interview scores. Medical school selection and education is still largely voodoo.

[krazyfish]

I agree with Krazyfish. The UKCAT should not be the sole indicator for getting an interview for those uni's with cut-offs. An aptitude test cannot be an entry requirement for medicine alone.

Hmmm maybe they should take the C out of UKCAT so it become UKAT since it's not really clinically related.

However how else do you cut down the number of applicants? I also don't think adding a science element to the UKCAT is any better. I took three sciences at A-level I think that's inidcator enough of my science ability. The only thing the science section in the BMAT tests is how quickly can you answer basic science questions whilst checking your understanding of it. It seems to me your A-levels do the science half and the UKCAT tests the quickness half. However I did like the Essay writing section since it tests how well you can organise and consicely write and format an ethical argument which is atleast science realted if not medically related. Atleast it would make some kind of a good indicator on how well of a doctor you may become.

Ah well those are my thoughts.

Nice one about taking the "c" out of UKCAT, well put.

[Rippy]

Just to point out, UKCAT is testing various skills useful for being a doctor, not necessarily medical student.

Try to correlate interview performance with 1st year exams - you won't find a correlation. Should interviews therefore not be used?

[krazyfish]

Just to point out, UKCAT is testing various skills useful for being a doctor, not necessarily medical student.

Try to correlate interview performance with 1st year exams - you won't find a correlation. Should interviews therefore not be used?

If anything, interview performance and first year performance should be higher correlated than UKCAT. Once again, I'm merely saying that less emphasis should be placed on the UKCAT because of its design flaws. Not that it should be taken out all together, with revision, the examination will be better.

A doctor is a student, in the sense that they have to be continually learning about advances, keeping up with research and refining skills. Wouldn't you agree that being in the field of medicine is a commitment to lifelong learning?