HELP!! Academic FY1 posts looking to go into surgery

**Bishop** · 13-05-2009, 05:51 PM

Okay,

My friend in 5th year has secured an academic post for his FY1 year, he told me he chose academics as it allows for research in the FY2 year ( he's concerned about the bottle necks up the road in respiratory medicine and so wants some research under his belt so he stands a better chance of getting on to the speciality of his choice at ST1).

I myself want to go into surgery, and have been told by him that an academic FY post will give me a leg up if it is a academic surgical programme.

However from looking at the foundation website it seems that academic posts with a surgical theme are mainly for people who want to do research in surgery as their occupation.

Another thing which deterred me was the lack of clinical rotations in the FY2 year, hence less experience running up to ST applications.

I was just wondering if anybody could advise me on whether its a viable choice to try to get a ST1 post in surgery (run through or otherwise) coming from academic medicine?

Thanks i need some insight the academic posts are already starting to come and i will have to make a decision soon.

**Bishop** · 15-05-2009, 11:54 AM

Come on doesn't anyone have any insight into this just looking for advice/opinions

**Smaysie** · 22-05-2009, 01:22 PM

Dear Bishop,

I think the majority of people who apply for academic surgical posts are more inclined towards the clinical side of the job but recognise (as your friend did) that an academic job will provide research opportunities that, come ST applications, will provide evidence of a commitment to surgery together with publications/presentations that undoubtedly score points on shortlisting for surgery jobs. Any academic job may lead to further research degrees, a life as a professor etc but many of the academic trainees will instead choose to go back into purely clinical work and it's not frowned upon to do this. These jobs are not just for people who are sure they want to do research; they are also for those who want to experience the research environment. Your only issue is the competition for places. This is increasing every year and people who state that they definitely want an academic career MAY have an advantage. Having said that, my experience is that most deaneries are looking for a mix of people; some with pre-existing research experience (PhDs etc) and some with very little.

I can't think of a disadvantage to applying for academic foundation programmes if it provides good research opportunities that you would otherwise have to seek out yourself and set aside time yourself to pursue. Only downside is that those academic 4 month blocks are unbanded.

In relation to lack of clinical jobs in FY2. Have a look at the Aberdeen Academic Surgery rotations (Home) - crammed full of surgical opportunities!

Hope that helps

Smaysie

**rjm** · 23-05-2009, 12:37 AM

My word or warning would be dont expect to get any publications or presentations in time for your ST applications. ST applications for the last 2 years happen in early January, as such you will have needed to do your research 4m in the first 4m ie Aug-Dec to have realistically done any research. Of course, many people who are interested will also do bits of preparation etc alongside their day job if there academic block is later on in the year. Publications take a long time both in preparation and once submitted to acceptance and furthermore to publication eg, my academic F2 research was completed in April, to get written to publication standard was about June, submitted and time to first review was about 3 months, make changes (happens to most manuscript) another few weeks and then a further few weeks to final acceptance. Published online in November, still not published in print and we're now nearly June. So the long and the short is dont do an academic job to get a publication in time for ST applications.

**yazoo** · 23-05-2009, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by rjm

My word or warning would be dont expect to get any publications or presentations in time for your ST applications. ST applications for the last 2 years happen in early January, as such you will have needed to do your research 4m in the first 4m ie Aug-Dec to have realistically done any research. Of course, many people who are interested will also do bits of preparation etc alongside their day job if there academic block is later on in the year. Publications take a long time both in preparation and once submitted to acceptance and furthermore to publication eg, my academic F2 research was completed in April, to get written to publication standard was about June, submitted and time to first review was about 3 months, make changes (happens to most manuscript) another few weeks and then a further few weeks to final acceptance. Published online in November, still not published in print and we're now nearly June. So the long and the short is dont do an academic job to get a publication in time for ST applications.

It depends where you submit. And how good your work is. It's pretty easy to get a poster quite fast (with a published abstract). In less than a year.

**Smaysie** · 23-05-2009, 01:37 PM

RJM and Yazoo are both correct. It depends which AFP you were thinking of doing. Some start their research work straight away but have no time set aside for it (Scotland) whereas some may have an allocated 4 month block as late as April-July of your FY2 year. Regardless, any research work is good experience and whether it's ready in time for initial ST applications is up to you, but if you don't do run through training and re-enter the jobs pot at ST3 level then you'll certainly find that it will count for shortlisting and you'll be thankful for having had the opportunity.

Having said that, the opportunity to do research is there for EVERYONE, not just the academic foundation trainees.

S

**rjm** · 28-05-2009, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by yazoo

It depends where you submit. And how good your work is. It's pretty easy to get a poster quite fast (with a published abstract). In less than a year.

Agreed, it is not impossible to get a published abstract in that time, a true publication which I was more referring to is more difficult...particularly if it is in a leading medical journal, as mine is!

**Bishop** · 06-06-2009, 09:37 PM

thanks for the comments guys thought this post was dead! I had given up on the academic route for a while. The thing is I am currently at the end of doing a Bsc in Anatomical Science and have found that i don't really like research, however i might consider giving it another crack if it will help down the line like at ST3 as a run-through post is unlikely given the competition ratios