Applying for foundation posts out of region

[Grimsdyke]

Hello. I am currently a 4th year medic starting to think about applying to the foundation programme. I have been told that it is harder to apply for foundation posts out of region. However, I do not really understand why this is the case (with the new system that has been introduced).

If people have any thoughts then I would be very interested.

[sheffieldmedic]

It is possible to do this! I have successfully applied for jobs outside of my home deanery!

You need to consider whether the deanery/foundation school you wish to apply to 'imports' or 'exports' graduates. For example, deaneries/foundation schools in london have far more graduates each year than F1 posts and therefore export large numbers of students to other deaneries in the UK. The west midlands, however, have extra jobs compared to the number of graduates and import people to fill the posts.

Be aware of the difference between the Deanery and Foundation School. In Sheffield, for example, you apply to the South Yorkshire and South Humber Deanery. This is made up of TWO foundation schools (South Yorkshire and Humber and the East Coast of Yorkshire Foundation Schools). If you start your foundation course in one school then you must finish it there! So the students who ended up with F1 at Hull and hoped they would get F2 in Sheffield have no chance as Hull is part of the East Coast School. Not all deaneries are made up of multiple foundation schools but it is worth considering. Also be aware of areas adopted by deaneries. Trent deanery covers the East Midlands, but also has a number of posts in Devon, Cornwall and the west country. So if you were hoping to get a job in Nottingham, you could end up in Exeter!

If you have an area in mind contact the Post Graduate Dean's Office and find out
a) The number of posts and the the number of graduates (ie import of export)
b) Where there posts are

You are quite right that the new system should allow, in theory, anyone to apply anywhere they like.... but you would still be restricted to applying for a majority of your posts within one deanery. On the Foundation Programme application form there is a section for your reasons for applying to that deanery. One part for personal reasons, the other part for professional reasons. On the marking scheme, eductional continuity counts for lots of points (ie: I trained at the medical school in Sometown rotating through the hospitals in the region. I am familiar with the local hospitals and working in this deanery will allow me an excellent degree of educational continuity blah blah blah). So.... if you're going to apply off of your patch, make sure you have a good reason to put on your application form!

My advice is to find a particular course or programme that is unique to that area (ie: The SomeRegion Deanery is the only place in the UK to offer a foundation course comprising Prison Medicine. I would also like to pursue the post-graduate diploma in prison medicine, offered only in the SomeRegion area and having experience of this at an early stage would be greatly beneficial to my early career development). Note: You can of course change your mind about which career path you would like to pursue once you have secured a post..... ;-)

[Grimsdyke]

Yes. Very interesting/good reply.

Basically, I think that everything you have said is true. You note that some deaneries are "exporters" and others are "importers". I suppose if you apply to an "importer" then your chances of securing a place (thereby inadvertently "exporting" a homegrown candidate!) will depend on your response to the continuity of education question. There is some sort of logic/rationale to that.

Cheers.

[Shujaat]

what about these eu & international applicants for f1 posts, a lot of them get into london, so there really shudnt be any trouble getting into places where there r less places than grads.

[thelittlechef]

Yes. Very interesting/good reply.

Basically, I think that everything you have said is true. You note that some deaneries are "exporters" and others are "importers". I suppose if you apply to an "importer" then your chances of securing a place (thereby inadvertently "exporting" a homegrown candidate!) will depend on your response to the continuity of education question. There is some sort of logic/rationale to that.

Cheers.

Is there a webpage anywhere that gives the import/export details on all the foundation schools?

[miguel_lwms]

what about these eu & international applicants for f1 posts, a lot of them get into london, so there really shudnt be any trouble getting into places where there r less places than grads.

.

The fact that lots of EU and international graduates get into London shows what a mess up the MMC/MTAS/MDAP thing is!

Basically You apply for a job in december get offers in jan/feb and have to accept by march. This whole process occurs before some schools have even taken finals! Obviously not everyone makes it through finals and consequently by end of July the trusts find that they have quite a few posts to be filled at short notice. Obviously they can't offer these posts to any UK graduates because suprise suprise, they have all formally accepted their offers in March and this is legally binding. The vacant posts then have to be offered to EU/international graduates or there would be gaps in service provision.

Now although this seems fair (and I don't begrudge the EU/international applicants) imagine if you were a London student who didn't get your first choice job but ended up having to accept your fourth, fifth or even sixth place job and you subsequently found out that your first choice went to someone else at the last minute because the candiadate who you came second to failed finals how would you feel?

Just to explain who the application process works:
1. You are asked to rank jobs in order of preference.
2. The deaneries score your application
3. Jobs are allocated based on scores for candidates selecting a particular job as first choice. So for each post, the highest ranked candiaste chosing that job as first choice gets allcoated a slot, followed by the second highest ranked candiate who chose that post as first choice etc.

You might think that if you ranked a 3 rotation job but came fourth overall (ie just missed a slot) that you would be considerd for your second choice job based on your score. wrong! Firstly all candidates who ranked your second choice job as their first choice will be considered even if you scored higher then them. Only if this post is unfilled would you be considered. The same goes for your third choice fourth choice etc. So its possible that if you miss your first choice job, you could drop right down to your bottom choices even if you score higher than successful candidates for your second or third or fourth or fifth or xth job.

The fact that you have to accept a post early on means that if a vacancy you like subsequently appears you can't apply as you have already entered into legal contract on accpeting your allocated post.

The moral of this is be careful how you rank jobs as if you choose only the most popular jobs and miss out you may be in a for a nasty suprise.

I know quite a few people who wanted orthopod rotations in the south east and therefore only selected jobs that had 2 surgical rotations one of which was in orthopaedics. unfortunately lots of other people had the same idea and so .......

[Chulalongkorn]

Hello. I am currently a 4th year medic starting to think about applying to the foundation programme. I have been told that it is harder to apply for foundation posts out of region. However, I do not really understand why this is the case (with the new system that has been introduced).

If people have any thoughts then I would be very interested.

The new system is national selection therefore there is NO advantage to applying to a local foundation school. Everyone is on a level playing field and advantage comes with geting a good academic ranking score and completing a good application form.

There are only 4 points available for saying why you chose to apply to a specific foundation school and saying that your med school is in the region will get a point or two but you can get as many (or more points) for stating other reasons. In fact another reason may have more validity and gain more points.

[yazoo]

There are only 4 points available for saying why you chose to apply to a specific foundation school and saying that your med school is in the region will get a point or two but you can get as many (or more points) for stating other reasons. In fact another reason may have more validity and gain more points.

Last year the scoring system guidelines stated that you got 4 points for continuity of education (i.e. staying in your med school area). That was an easy 4 points if you applied locally.

I agree you could still get 4 points applying out of region if the same scoring applies this year, but it's not guanenteed in the same way as the continuity ruling, which was the one of the most definite ways of scoring a 4 in the entire application.

[Chulalongkorn]

Hi Yazoo & Grimsdyke,

I emailed one of the Foundation Course organisers about this this morning who emailed me back straight away (yes on a Sunday, they are very efficient!) and they told me:

that there is no advantage, point-wise or any other way for local applicants

and

there will be no question relating to our reasons for our order of preference of Foundation Schools, and unless we choose to make it clear from the detail in our answers, the scorers will not know that we are from XXX Medical School.

And so I can assume that even if we do declare what med school we are from, it will confer no advantage or disadvantage. It seems this year is truly a level playing field for all applicants, which I support.

So in answer to your original enquiry Grimsdyke, no it is no harder to apply out of Deanery with the new system, its just as easy (or difficult ).

I think this year we will see a far bigger migration of new medical graduates nationally. I know many students (especially in London) think they should have some rights to be placed on a local Foundation course, but we are applying for jobs and therefore everyone in the country who has the requisite qualifications should be able to apply for that post, as is the case for any other job.