surgery

**micks** · 23-07-2005, 08:06 PM

wish u hadn't said that - thinking of doing neurosurgery and i just got into med school after doing a BSc in neuroscience... it must confer some kind of advantage?!

**andy2** · 24-07-2005, 08:47 PM

The advantage confered by having a second degree (be it intercalated or a primary degree before med school) is in 1) it will make your CV look more impressive and give you more points (CVs are now point scored in an attempt to make job applications more fair -e.g. 2 points for BSc, 1 point for publications, 1 point for additional qualifactions such as ALS/ATLS [life support courses], 1 point for audits etc.. more points =better chance of interview).
2) the skills you learnt doing a BSc may be of use-especially if you want to do research. However having a degree in a particular subject will give you no advantage over a person with a degree in a less closely allied subject or someone who has amassed plenty of points in other ways. Neuroscience as an academic subject has little bearing on neurosurgery, and infact precious little bearing on neurology.

However my advice to those who haven't yet gone to med school, or have just started, is not to close off options too early - the range of medical specialties is huge, their popular perceptions often bear little relationship to reality and it is not until you have experienced a job (preferably by working in it rather than as a student) that you get a real feel for a specialty.

**Layla** · 31-08-2005, 08:28 PM

I am too a prospective medical student who wants to become a neurosurgeon, but plans to do a BSc before applying for medicine. Right now, I'm really at the point of choosing between a BSc in neuroscience or a BSc in anatomical sciences with human biology. Which do you think would benefit me most?

**andy2** · 31-08-2005, 09:32 PM

Either would be fine, and either would have relevance to medicine -just do them at a reputable uni and geta good degree (1st/2:1) for gradate entry. Choose the degree you most want to do as that will maximise your chances of getting a good final grade. And as I said above don't start aiming for specific specialties until you've tried them out.

**Kinkerz** · 08-04-2008, 12:47 AM

Neurosurgery is exceptionaly competitive. There are few posts available and a high volume of applicants.
To make yourself stand out a B.Sc in Neuroscience wouldn't hurt. And once you've graduated medical school, and completed FY1 and FY2. Try and secure a surgical SHO post, which will give you the opportunity to do at least 6 months in Neurosurgery. Then once you've completed the SHO years, it would be wise to bulk your CV by doing an MD or PhD, and whilst doing this try and do as much research as you can into Neurology and Neurosurgery. Also getting a piece published wouldn't hurt!
Then apply for SpR positions.... Good Luck

PS: If anyone sees any information as incorrect or inaccurate, please post and tell me where.

**Spencer Wells** · 08-04-2008, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by Kinkerz

Neurosurgery is exceptionaly competitive. There are few posts available and a high volume of applicants.
To make yourself stand out a B.Sc in Neuroscience wouldn't hurt. And once you've graduated medical school, and completed FY1 and FY2. Try and secure a surgical SHO post, which will give you the opportunity to do at least 6 months in Neurosurgery. Then once you've completed the SHO years, it would be wise to bulk your CV by doing an MD or PhD, and whilst doing this try and do as much research as you can into Neurology and Neurosurgery. Also getting a piece published wouldn't hurt!
Then apply for SpR positions.... Good Luck

PS: If anyone sees any information as incorrect or inaccurate, please post and tell me where.

Well given as SHOs and SpRs don't exist any more it's a little inaccurate.
The pathway now is:
Foundation years
Core surgical training (2 years)
Higher surgical training
(?) Consultant (cos the haven't figured out if you'll be a full consultant at the end or a new grade of junior consultant)

Also, taking time out to do a MD or PhD probably won't be necessary (the whole point of the reform was to speed up getting to a consultant level).

**Kinkerz** · 08-04-2008, 07:09 PM

http://www.careers.bmj.com/careers/a...e.html?id=1825

Yeah... Now I look at it, it does say 2006. That's a little embarassing.
Just swap SHO for ST then(?) I thought they were pretty much the same thing anyway, just that ST is specific specialty whereas SHO was when you'd gain experience from a range of different specialties (or is that wrong?).

And yeah I know the whole aim of the MMC was to reduce time from graduate to consultant, but from what i've read on here, it doesn't seem to have worked out quite as planned as many are having to stop at staff grade posts. So some are actually having to do MDs and PhDs in order to get to the really competitive specialties. Is that totally wrong? Is this kind of thing in the past now?

**Kinkerz** · 08-04-2008, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by Spencer Wells

Well given as SHOs and SpRs don't exist any more it's a little inaccurate.

Bit of forum sarcasm there. It is difficult to write sarcasm.... You have the gift.

**Spencer Wells** · 09-04-2008, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by Kinkerz

Bit of forum sarcasm there. It is difficult to write sarcasm.... You have the gift.

I've been using the forums for a long time.

If you want to compare new to old I suppose you could say that ST1 and ST2 are pretty much equivalent to the old SHO, with anything ST3+ being a registrar.
Under the new system, you can actually get penalised for having too much experience. If, for example, as an FY2, you don't get into a training post for the specialty that you want, and so take a non-training post in that specialty, to get experience, you may then become ineligible to apply for entry onto the training in the future. e.g. to get on a surgery training scheme you must have less than 1 year's experience in surgery (I think). Given that you get usually 6 month's experience in it as an FY1, after 1 non-training post, you then wouldn't be allowed to apply for entry into that specialty. However, there may be the possibility of transferring in higher up, but from what I understand it's all rather wishy-washy at the moment.
Having a higher degree is also unlikely to count for much either (having a 1st class honours degree is counted the same as having a PhD at the moment).

**yazoo** · 09-04-2008, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by Spencer Wells

Under the new system, you can actually get penalised for having too much experience. If, for example, as an FY2, you don't get into a training post for the specialty that you want, and so take a non-training post in that specialty, to get experience, you may then become ineligible to apply for entry onto the training in the future. e.g. to get on a surgery training scheme you must have less than 1 year's experience in surgery (I think). Given that you get usually 6 month's experience in it as an FY1, after 1 non-training post, you then wouldn't be allowed to apply for entry into that specialty. However, there may be the possibility of transferring in higher up, but from what I understand it's all rather wishy-washy at the moment.
Having a higher degree is also unlikely to count for much either (having a 1st class honours degree is counted the same as having a PhD at the moment).

Time spent at foundation level does not count towards ST training, as far as I am aware (not on the person specs I have read, anyway). And a PhD still carries more weight academically on (all?) the scoring sheets I have seen so far. I can't see either changing much. FY training is generic and a PhD is a pretty big achievement (3 yrs full-time equivalent, single piece of academic work - try it and see!!!...)