For those left jobless for FY1

**nextman** · 15-02-2006, 02:25 AM

I don't see why anyone applying to London from outside should be disillusioned by not getting a place- you took a significant risk and you were aiming to take potential posts from others who have been studying in London for the last 6 years and paying London living costs (which in some cases is double everywhere else). MMC may have screwed up by creating this new system but perhaps damage could have been limited it everyone stuck to their home deaneries.

**cecilia** · 15-02-2006, 03:47 AM

People's F1 experiences make horrifying reading.That our future doctors are being selected by a system not much better than a tombola leaves me practically speechless. It seems to be the case that throughout the London Deaneries those left jobless are not fools or lazy or clinically incompetent - as has been mentioned, several are high- flyers, and some that I know of who HAVE got jobs were given 30th choices and worse. One med school allocated jobs to 70 EU (therefore external)students! Maybe other schools were required to do this too.Fair enough under EU rules such students have a right to apply, but surely home students should come first - couldn't external students enter into phase 2? One excellent post here, giving interesting links, advises getting together, ascertaining your rights - do it and perhaps also seek legal advice (employment legislation etc.). This pernicious system needs to be shot out of the water asap!! Good luck to absolutely everyone who has fallen foul of this process designed by nincompoops. You have been very badly let down.
Cecila

**GUARDIAN ANGEL** · 15-02-2006, 05:30 AM

Dear All,

I continue to be amazed at the problems that MDAP has created. I work at a Central London teaching hospital and there is much disquiet. Consultants were totally against this and some witnessed some potential irregularities in the marking process.

What is amazing is that so many UK students are unplaced, think the numbers are recorded levels if 250 is simply the london total that is a scandal. Cant believe that is a true reflection on the quality of the students coming through medical sch.

The system I believe is inherently unfair and unsafe as there is no vigorous cross checking of the facts stated on the application form, how easy would it be to spin some facts or get some professional help to fill in the form. How is MDAP going to check all the facts on all the forms, especially those from EU and NON-EU countries. If this had been done locally where consultants know students this would not be a problem. If this system continues next year professional fee paying courses will spring up telling people how to complete the form and play the system, in some ways that would be fairer.

What I what to know is will there be enough FY1 jobs for all the UK grads, who require these jobs to complete training and get full registration, if a lot have gone to overseas grads. I would have thought that UK grads would be placed first and any others given to external uk applicants. But this sensible approach which has previously been the rule is not equal opps compliant in the politically correct environment of today, no longer can we nuture are local talent, mentor and help them develop as medical colleagues.

I suggest unplaced students contact the Deanries, MDAP, GMC and med sch and get your voices heard-you have been wronged and to right it your voices need to be heard, enlist the help of consultants. Some of you must have parents or family members who are lawyers get them involved. Use the tools at your disposal Freedom of Info ac and data protection act to get information released on the system and process as well as your own personal score and who scored it-all this must be released by law. See my earlier posting for a ppt on the FY1 given at the London deanery and some articles critising MDAP

Some useful links

http://www.direct.gov.uk for link to data protection act

www.foi.gov.uk

A lot of people are behind you.

Good luck

MY EARLIER POSTING

Dear All,

The MDAP process appears to have turned into a farce. Currently in London there appears to be 250 unmatched students, I don't think that there has ever been so many unmatched students in London. A lot of these students are high flyers with 1st, prizes etc. I know there are a lot of unhappy students as well as consultants.

There appears to be a number of issues surrounding MDAP such as
(1) Checking the validlity of the info on the form ie were people telling the truth etc. Apparently this has not been done, so how can anyone be sure that people didnt spin their application process particularly if they applied from overseas.

There was a very good critique on the MDAP by:
John Firth
Muddling Medical Careers—the foundation year appointment process
BMJ Career Focus 2005; 331: 237-a-238

This is the address for the subsequent discussion
http://careerfocus.bmjjournals.com/c...331/7528/237-a

He clearly lays out the problems and defects of the system and there are many.

On the London Deanery website there isa powerpoint presentation which was given regarding MDAP-which I think you will find intresting to read. They acknowlege problems with plagirism, errors on database and that system was introduced at speed. It makes intresting reading and raises a no of questions for those without jobs.

Link for presentation
http://www.londondeanery.ac.uk/spect...12_05/matching process.ppt

or go to www.londondeanery.ac.uk and type in MDAP and its the top presentation

If people are unhappy I suggest they:
(1) Demand right of appeal
(2) use the freedom of Information act and the data protection act to get all the information and doucments relating to MDAP released. Any info held on people like their score etc has to be released under data P act and any person can request info under freedom of info act just write to the deanery and MDAP.
(3) Check that the application process has not infringed on any of there human rights which is now inshrined in Uk law.

You should as a group arrange meetings with the deaneries and the person in charge of MDAP

**GUARDIAN ANGEL** · 15-02-2006, 05:44 AM

In answer to Atheros question how to get score write, ring etc the MDAP and the deanery quoting the data protection act by law anything with you name on has to be released.

If your a london student contact the London deanery they have a very good website that lists phone nos and emails.

I hear from students locally that the MDAP is not responding to emails. Copy the people at your local deaneries in on all your MDAP emails as well as writing to them directly.

Remmember info with you name on including your score, any internal documents and emails that mention you have to be released to you by law simply write and request quoting data protection act. If you want anything else relating to MDAP process quote Freedom of info act but be specific in yoour requests.

**Stormchild** · 15-02-2006, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by nextman

I don't see why anyone applying to London from outside should be disillusioned by not getting a place- you took a significant risk and you were aiming to take potential posts from others who have been studying in London for the last 6 years and paying London living costs (which in some cases is double everywhere else). MMC may have screwed up by creating this new system but perhaps damage could have been limited it everyone stuck to their home deaneries.

I don't see why 'studying in London for the last 6 years and paying London living costs' should increase an individual's right to remain in their home deanery. This fact alone would not be taken into consideration when applying for any job post-foundation year.

I don't know if you realise this but a large proportion of medical students studying away from London are from the South, hence it would only be natural for them to want to return after graduation alike many other graduates. The change in the system means that the 'House Officer' year is extended to 2 rather than 1 year and I'm sure that this plays a huge part in deciding whether to stay in the home deanery or not.

The new system has now made it easier for people to apply off scheme, and they no longer feel that they are 'stuck' in their home deanery for another two years. Some were unaware of the implications of studying and propsectively working in the same area when applying to medical school.

**Stormchild** · 15-02-2006, 05:46 PM

Is everybody forgetting Phase 2?! There are yet more jobs to be allocated, this isn't the end!

Additionally foundation jobs are essentially generic; we all end up playing the same role in whatever speciality. And finally.. if we don't graduate, we don't get the job! Simple!

**neets** · 15-02-2006, 06:14 PM

how many candidates do u guys think will actually be partcipating in phase 2? it is quite worrying as there seems to be a lot of london candidates already, and apparently only 8% of the final posts are allocated in this phase.

it seems like a lot of people are going to end up in clearing (worrying stil is that there is no guarantee that there will be clearing, as it depends on the no. of posts available at the end - who knows with the non-UK candidates? which was stated in the operational framework handbook from the mmc)

and if they have to rank 40 posts like in phase 1, i think it would be fairer if they allow everyone to rank as many posts as they want, at least then u wud have some say in the matter about where u end up!

**valerija** · 15-02-2006, 06:41 PM

hi guys .
well UK gradautes should have the priority in geting a job .It's their right of course , but guys before blaiming the EU and overseas docotrs let me give you some numbers :
in group 2 there are about 3150 f1 posts
in group 1 the number is slightly lower
if u add them the total number will be between 5500 and 6000 posts roughly
according to the BMA UK graduates ( if nobody fails his/her final exam ) cover roughly about 88% of the total number ......................
a small calculation and we will have 12% = 600-700 posts ( shortage ).
according to the MMC overseas doctors should have an eligibility letter
from the GMC to accept their applications , and according to the GMC ( written in london deanery wesite ) this letter of eligibility was given to 128 doctor only .................................................. ..................................
about the EU : all of us we know that the english language is a big barrier
especialy for those from eastern europe and even France ,Spain and other countries ( keeping in mind not all the EU countries were eligible ) . in addition all those countries have their medical and educational system so many students they prefer to finish in their countries and then come here to work as registrar or consultant positions ( and all of us we know to become a consultant or just a specialist every where quicker then here ).
if we come back to the foundation and what happened here in phase one we can notice clearly that the problem was in london deaneries not in the other deaneries ..
So guys the real situation is that the competition was between UK graduates themself ,many from outside london applied here .....
and if few EU or overseas students applied i am sure they cant compete with you .......... and i am sure there are not stupid to apply here in london and i know many of them they applied to other deaneries and to the district hospitals where you dont like and you dont want to go guys .............

so please stop discrimination : you should have the priority and it is ur right but at the same time u need them otherwise many district hospitals will end up without junior doctors . I am sure the number of posts even with the EU and overseas doctors will be enough and at the end of the day all of you will get a post maybe not what and where you wanted but at least you wont stay at home after ur graduation .......................

**gedzux** · 15-02-2006, 07:29 PM

Good arguments, Valerija! I am EU graduate and I applied to Norht western deanery and my friends did the same and we got the places without problems. I don't think that we wrote untrue in our application forms or that our applications were better than that of english graduates. The main issue is that you don't want to apply to district hospitals. My friend (also from EU) is PRHO and he said that 70 % of doctors outside London are from overseas. Is it truth?
So, be patient and don't discriminate overseas graduates!
Good luck for these at the phase 2!

**neets** · 15-02-2006, 08:09 PM

hi sorry i didnt understand that bit, are u saying UK graduates cover 88% of the total no of posts available in F1, i.e. all of them get posts somewhere in the UK, could u post the link for the page within the BMA website that states these figures as i cant seem to find it by searching on their site! thanks

Originally Posted by valerija

hi guys .
well UK gradautes should have the priority in geting a job .It's their right of course , but guys before blaiming the EU and overseas docotrs let me give you some numbers :
in group 2 there are about 3150 f1 posts
in group 1 the number is slightly lower
if u add them the total number will be between 5500 and 6000 posts roughly
according to the BMA UK graduates ( if nobody fails his/her final exam ) cover roughly about 88% of the total number ......................
a small calculation and we will have 12% = 600-700 posts ( shortage ).
according to the MMC overseas doctors should have an eligibility letter
from the GMC to accept their applications , and according to the GMC ( written in london deanery wesite ) this letter of eligibility was given to 128 doctor only .................................................. ..................................
about the EU : all of us we know that the english language is a big barrier
especialy for those from eastern europe and even France ,Spain and other countries ( keeping in mind not all the EU countries were eligible ) . in addition all those countries have their medical and educational system so many students they prefer to finish in their countries and then come here to work as registrar or consultant positions ( and all of us we know to become a consultant or just a specialist every where quicker then here ).
if we come back to the foundation and what happened here in phase one we can notice clearly that the problem was in london deaneries not in the other deaneries ..
So guys the real situation is that the competition was between UK graduates themself ,many from outside london applied here .....
and if few EU or overseas students applied i am sure they cant compete with you .......... and i am sure there are not stupid to apply here in london and i know many of them they applied to other deaneries and to the district hospitals where you dont like and you dont want to go guys .............

so please stop discrimination : you should have the priority and it is ur right but at the same time u need them otherwise many district hospitals will end up without junior doctors . I am sure the number of posts even with the EU and overseas doctors will be enough and at the end of the day all of you will get a post maybe not what and where you wanted but at least you wont stay at home after ur graduation .......................