For those left jobless for FY1

**nextman** · 13-02-2006, 02:29 AM

Some sort of osce? Many of the people marking the form are not even doctors ( as we were told nurses and other staff would be marking the forms). Who are they to request a clinical examination in addition to finals which would already indicate competence. Are they saying that the bottom 5% even though they have already passed exams thus far require further examination based on a form. Someone needs to audit MDAP based on their half-baked ideas. I did get a job but I just think the system is a joke and extremely marker-biased-what some may think is a good example for some of the questions, others may not and I hardly think they've organised a good enough way of keeping the system unbiased at this stage.

**kakash** · 13-02-2006, 02:39 AM

Firstly my thoughts and hopes to all those in phase 2. Hang in there guys.

I know ppl from UCL some of which have good academic results who are in phase two and i know another chap whos doing the bottom 5% osce thing too. There is a distinct lack of clarity with the whole MDAP process. I am in total agreement with the Jiraya guy from Leeds about that osce thing I dont understand what it achives. My mate whos doing it postulated that it may be some sort of audit to test whether this system has any correlation with which candiates are better doctors (whatever that is).

Looking at the froms of my mates who got jobs and those who didnt i can see a small difference. Generally better quality of english and structure of the paragraphs, and often a more specific description rather than a generalised account of an achivement. In addition careful attention is required to see whethere all of the criteria for the question were fully answered. There is a possibility of scoring 0/4 after all. So with respect to marking the forms i do see some method to the madness. I imagine to get a 4/4 or even a 3 is relativley hard i.e. 3=top centile, 4=top prize etc. so assuming a max of 64 marks. Im not saying I think the process was perfect or indeed that it is the best way of selecting the best future doctors, but there is no system that is completley fair for all candidates, as being a doctor these days is multi dimentional, and objective assessment of these dimensions is difficult without seeing us actually do the job.

So hang in there guys remember some people with jobs dont pass finals, so there will be jobs and once ur given the chance its up to you to show how good you are

.

**WAMS** · 13-02-2006, 03:21 AM

I have also heard that there are some questions where if you get a zero, then you may not be allowed to progress or something i.e. some sort of 'killer' question.

Again, this is just what I've heard and don't know if it is fact.

I also know of someone who is in the bottom 5% and mini OSCE has been mentioned. I was extremely shocked that this person was in the bottom 5%, as I think they would make an excellent dr.

And pully, yeah, why don't they just ask the referees!??

All the best,

**pilly84** · 13-02-2006, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by WAMS

I have also heard that there are some questions where if you get a zero, then you may not be allowed to progress or something i.e. some sort of 'killer' question.

I have read that if you get 0 for any of the questions that relate to fitness to pratise, teamwork and leadership, you are considered ineligible for F1 jobs. I got this off the MMC website.

Best of luck to all of you

**Atheros** · 13-02-2006, 05:30 PM

Does anyone have an idea on how to get hold of your score? I really don't know who to contact. newdoctor.org are not hugely responsive. I applied to NE London... any idea who i should contact?

**GUARDIAN ANGEL** · 14-02-2006, 02:25 PM

Dear All,

The MDAP process appears to have turned into a farce. Currently in London there appears to be 250 unmatched students, I don't think that there has ever been so many unmatched students in London. A lot of these students are high flyers with 1st, prizes etc. I know there are a lot of unhappy students as well as consultants.

There appears to be a number of issues surrounding MDAP such as
(1) Checking the validlity of the info on the form ie were people telling the truth etc. Apparently this has not been done, so how can anyone be sure that people didnt spin their application process particularly if they applied from overseas.

There was a very good critique on the MDAP by:
John Firth
Muddling Medical Careers—the foundation year appointment process
BMJ Career Focus 2005; 331: 237-a-238

This is the address for the subsequent discussion
http://careerfocus.bmjjournals.com/c...331/7528/237-a

He clearly lays out the problems and defects of the system and there are many.

On the London Deanery website there isa powerpoint presentation which was given regarding MDAP-which I think you will find intresting to read. They acknowlege problems with plagirism, errors on database and that system was introduced at speed. It makes intresting reading and raises a no of questions for those without jobs.

Link for presentation
http://www.londondeanery.ac.uk/spect...12_05/matching process.ppt

or go to www.londondeanery.ac.uk and type in MDAP and its the top presentation

If people are unhappy I suggest they:
(1) Demand right of appeal
(2) use the freedom of Information act and the data protection act to get all the information and doucments relating to MDAP released. Any info held on people like their score etc has to be released under data P act and any person can request info under freedom of info act just write to the deanery and MDAP.
(3) Check that the application process has not infringed on any of there human rights which is now inshrined in Uk law.

You should as a group arrange meetings with the deaneries and the person in charge of MDAP.
Good luck

**The Don** · 14-02-2006, 02:41 PM

Hi,

In reply to the original post,

I'm currently in final year at Liverpool Med School and as far as I know all the students who applied to the Mersey Deanery here were allocated some sort of job even if it wasn't in their ideal location. I've not heard of any horror stories so far of people being left stranded. I don't know if this has anything to do with the fact that we sit our finals in fourth year (crazy I know!!!) which obviously means everyone currently in final year has already passed the big exams.

The Don

**WAMS** · 15-02-2006, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by GUARDIAN ANGEL

The MDAP process appears to have turned into a farce. Currently in London there appears to be 250 unmatched students, I don't think that there has ever been so many unmatched students in London. A lot of these students are high flyers with 1st, prizes etc. I know there are a lot of unhappy students as well as consultants.

Is that because more people got in from outside London? Rather than London consultants being bias towards 'London' medical students?

Cheers for the other info - I'm going to pass it onto some people I know who didn't get a place.

**kakash** · 15-02-2006, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by WAMS

Is that because more people got in from outside London? Rather than London consultants being bias towards 'London' medical students?

Cheers for the other info - I'm going to pass it onto some people I know who didn't get a place.

2 things I think that Mersey side was a different grouping to the rest of us i.e. they didnt take part in the nationwide matchmaking.

Also looking at the whole London thing, it makes sense that more students applied from outside london to workin london rather than the other way round. Now that the mentioned bias has been removed we are seeing many london students unplaced. A lot of ppl in my year are a little miffed as a big reason to study in london was to one day work in london.

**Atheros** · 15-02-2006, 02:00 AM

Questions for The Don,

1) I understand that the Mersey Deanery was not part of the MDAP application process, is that right?

2) How many posts did each person have to shortlist? (in MDAP we had to choose 40).

3) Were students allocated jobs which weren't on their shortlist?

Thanks!