Call for vaccine opt-out penalty

[Singh.Simran]

Originally Posted by agneishd

but reminds me of the one child policy in China

So yes i suppose the rich could avoid vaccinating their children too, not sure why they'd want to. I imagine the law could make it apply to private schools, and unlike having a whole new child i guess it makes sense to go for a few jabs for the same economic penalites...

[NorthernLight]

Originally Posted by Singh.Simran

So yes i suppose the rich could avoid vaccinating their children too, not sure why they'd want to.

Well, if people could see their way to trying to understand why people refuse and coming up with ways to persuade them that it might be a bad idea then the whole compulsion issue might go away.
Coming up with more convoluted ways of forcing people to undergo a medical procedure doesn't really address the fundamental issue - which for me is patient autonomy.

[Singh.Simran]

The patient here has no say in the matter, let us not forget that the patient is the child and the person subject to compulsion/"encouragement" is the parent. So it's either the tyranny of the state or of the parent. I know which is most likely to be put the objective needs of the child and their classmates at the forefront of decision...

I think to some extent patient autonomy is overblown. Yes, of course it is a good and necessary thing, broadly speaking, just as a matter of rights and doing good - but i see it as by no means a 100% unbreakable principle in all cases. Being part of a democratic state involves one submitting to the majority will of said, and i think healthcare is no exception; when your decision, e.g. with vaccinations, and c.f. crime, affects others, you have no right to make it with absolute free will, hence punishments, c.f. prison.

Admittedly, to dress it up as encouragement avoids all the hassle of "fair and just tribunals" and "presumption of innocence", but it is in essence a social crime and a social punishment.

I've digressed. Autonomy - it is lost under a given age, in given condition, i imagine while one is conscious the doctors just have to do the best for you given a distict lack of ability for you to communicate that to them... court orders can invalidate, and go against it. So why it is seen as overarching i know not; it doesnt appear to be in theory or practice. Perhaps to see it as such is an easy way to stress it can only be suspended with good reason, but there's no reason it should NEVER be suspended.

*breathe*

[469er]

How weird. I just had an email saying agneishd had posted again, but now I've come to have a look, it's not here...

Is this thread eating itself?

[agneishd]

maybe...

[469er]

Perhaps it's an autoimmune response.

[agneishd]

:O thats bad news

[NorthernLight]

Originally Posted by Singh.Simran

So it's either the tyranny of the state or of the parent. I know which is most likely to be put the objective needs of the child and their classmates at the forefront of decision...

Blimey, so forced adoption is still on the agenda then?
I look forward to a benign dictatorship where children are extracted from dangerous family situations in which they get no encouragement to do schoolwork, are fed a diabetes-inducing diet and are allowed to watch anything they like on TV while also playing GTA 4 and desensitizing themselves to the effects of violence. Also not that keen on ear piercings in the under fives.

I agree that sometimes autonomy is not the be-all and end-all of a discussion, but in this particular case I think too many people are far too ready to impose a pretty drastic solution on a fairly minor problem.
Compulsory vaccinations? Check
Compulsory healthy diet? Check
Compulsory exercise classes? Check
Compulsory state-led childhood? Check
Greetings, Brave New World.

[Arch_Angel]

Originally Posted by NorthernLight

Blimey, so forced adoption is still on the agenda then?
I look forward to a benign dictatorship where children are extracted from dangerous family situations in which they get no encouragement to do schoolwork, are fed a diabetes-inducing diet and are allowed to watch anything they like on TV while also playing GTA 4 and desensitizing themselves to the effects of violence. Also not that keen on ear piercings in the under fives.

Me too Not just forced adoption, manditory adoption... We should have a Sparta like program that takes kids away to be raised when they are about 5. However instead of training them to be warriors we'd train them to be philosopher scientists

(if only)

On a more serious note, the job of the parent is to protect the kid, the job of the state is to protect the kid from the parent if needs be. If you don't feed your child the state takes them away, as it is not the right of a parent to kill the child, nor should it be their right to put them in unnecessary danger. Hence if a real reason cannot be found to stop a child getting vaccinated (a rational, medical reason involving evidence, not a lack of evidence for a negative) then it should be compulsory.

Also, democracy shouldn't extend to most areas of life only to picking a government Although I think we've had this discussion before....if 95% of people want a minority rounded up and shot it still shouldn't happen (as Reductio ad absurdum), same with illegal street nudity, drugs, passing arbitrary laws etc. They should be concerned with causing harm and restricting liberty, not a consensus....same goes for this vaccination I expect. If 98% of a religious community doesn't want their children vaccinated, screw 'em and do it anyway. Can't see any difference with this and a JW nutjob letting their kid die through a lack of blood transfusion. Those people should have (all) their kids taken away and be locked up.

Ok.....back to work

[469er]

Ah, I wondered when you'd be along.

Originally Posted by Arch_Angel

We should have a Sparta like program that takes kids away to be raised when they are about 5.

S'fine by me. I might get some work done.

same with illegal street nudity

Oh, come on. You're going too far now. I personally would like to see more street nudity, especially at this time of year, when the unexpected good weather brings us those very special expanses of mottled, pale flesh. Preferably with stubble.