Call for vaccine opt-out penalty

[Singh.Simran]

I wonder how steadfast people would be if they were brought in front of ward full of other children who contracted disease through their own unwillingness to combat it..

the thing is it's not just the state forcing people to do things, it's looking at the greater good and whether the loss of x percent more children open as vectors and indeed to fall ill themsilves justifies the means..

i wouldn't presume to know but i guess it does, to me at least. sure if you can justify yourself, with scientific reasons that a certain vaccine might be damaging etc, but people who simply refuse (of which i imagine there are a great many) shouldn't be allowed to endanger the health of others, and indeed the children themselves. in some jurisdictions, it's child abuse.

[NorthernLight]

The "greater good" could lead to all sorts of medical treatments being forced on people if you take it as an end in itself . . .
We don't live in a totalitarian state. And personally I don't want to be part of a thin end of what might turn out to be a very large wedge.
As for "child abuse" - perhaps a bit overstated ?

[Muffin2]

Originally Posted by 469er

Clearly. I was actually speaking generally, but if the cap fits... You ought to care (or at least ought to learn to pretend you do) by the time you qualify, though. You'll come across plenty of patients like me over the years. Unless you decide to specialise in pathology. Which perhaps you should.

hillarious.
i think you'll find quite a lot of doctors who "pretend" as you put it, to care. its very frustrating when mummy brings in baby who has measles and wonders why, and the proceeds to complain she had to wait, and demand the doc fix everything quick so she can go to yoga. and to use your phrase, i could probably go out for a nice lunch to the amount of times i've heard doctors express their frustration at parents who refuse to get ther kids vaccinated.


just out of interest, if its not MMR and the autism that puts you off, what is it.

[Muffin2]

Originally Posted by NorthernLight

As for "child abuse" - perhaps a bit overstated ?

i suppose. but if child abuse is causing a child deliberate harm, then i suppose by not vaccinating them and them catching mumps/rubella and as a result become infertile, then this is technically causing them harm. its a bit of a grey area.

[Kohl]

Interesting strategy, and has the right idea...but not about to happen any time soon.

What religious reasons would parents have to decline the MMR vaccine for their child..?

[469er]

Originally Posted by Muffin2

hillarious.

It wasn't a joke.

i think you'll find quite a lot of doctors who "pretend" as you put it, to care.

I wasn't suggesting that most doctors have to pretend to care (although I daresay some do, and that all find it an essential survival skill on some occasions). You said you don't care if people think you're arrogant, and I was saying that you need to learn how to curb that indifference before you become a practising professional. I accept that this is an internet forum, and that perhaps you don't behave like this in real life, but really, on thread after thread, you display a most obnoxious disregard for anyone's viewpoint but your own, to the point where often you can't be bothered actually to read posts accurately before beginning to argue.

its very frustrating when mummy brings in baby who has measles and wonders why, and the proceeds to complain she had to wait, and demand the doc fix everything quick so she can go to yoga.

Are you sure you want to be a doctor? You seem to pigeonhole, judge and parody people very quickly. If this is how you view patients (or perhaps just ones who disagree with you) you're going to be stressed and burnt out very quickly.

and to use your phrase, i could probably go out for a nice lunch to the amount of times i've heard doctors express their frustration at parents who refuse to get ther kids vaccinated.

I'm sure you could. Probably a much more upmarket lunch than I'd be getting. What's your point? Safety in numbers? Does that justify your stance on coercion? I don't think so (even if all those frustrated doctors agreed with you, which I doubt they would). As NorthernLight said, if that's the level of your respect for your patients, you really are going to be in the wrong job. Concordance, anyone?

just out of interest, if its not MMR and the autism that puts you off, what is it.

Nice try, but I'm not getting into my family medical history on the internet. Suffice to say, my GP supports my decision - partly because he's the first doctor I've ever had who's bothered to ask what/why it is.

[469er]

Originally Posted by Kohl

What religious reasons would parents have to decline the MMR vaccine for their child..?

I don't know the answer to this question, though I could maybe extemporise. I think it's worth noting, though, that this news story is about vaccinations generally, not specifically about MMR.

[Muffin2]

Originally Posted by 469er

It wasn't a joke.

i know, i wasn't laughing.

Originally Posted by 469er

on thread after thread, you display a most obnoxious disregard for anyone's viewpoint but your own, to the point where often you can't be bothered actually to read posts accurately before beginning to argue.

i do read everything, if your referring to me mis-reading giz then its not very hard to mis read giz's posts. i appologise, i have difficulty reading things which aren't written properly. and as you rightly said, this is a forum with lots of people on it, not everyone is going to agree with each others view points. just because i don't agree with someone doesn't make me obnoxious. everyone has slightly different view points on things.

Originally Posted by 469er

Are you sure you want to be a doctor?

yes

Originally Posted by 469er

You seem to pigeonhole, judge and parody people very quickly. If this is how you view patients (or perhaps just ones who disagree with you) you're going to be stressed and burnt out very quickly.

What's your point? Safety in numbers? Does that justify your stance on coercion? I don't think so (even if all those frustrated doctors agreed with you, which I doubt they would). As NorthernLight said, if that's the level of your respect for your patients, you really are going to be in the wrong job.

forgive me if i don't see the world as rosy a place a some people. i see things as they are. and my point therefore was that many doctors are angry at the guy who wrote the paper on MMR and vaccine because of the outbreaks its caused. personally i think its only human to get a tad frustated when people can help themselves but they don't. my dads on ITU after a massive MI because he wouldn't help himself, the whole family tried to help but he didn't want to know.
but thats what we're here for after all, to help people (cliche i know, but thats what it bottles down to :P ) because as northern light said unfortunatley these days, the vast majority of cases we see are self inflicted in one way or another.

Originally Posted by 469er

Nice try, but I'm not getting into my family medical history on the internet. Suffice to say, my GP supports my decision - partly because he's the first doctor I've ever had who's bothered to ask what/why it is.

i respect that you don't want to reveal medical info on the net, but please understand that i'm asking why because i want to understand your viewpoint.

[Muffin2]

Originally Posted by Kohl

What religious reasons would parents have to decline the MMR vaccine for their child..?

there's a denomination of christianity called Christ's Scientists. they don't believe in medical treatment in any way shape or form. so they wouldn't want to vaccinate.

[Muffin2]

sorry i messed up the quotes there, just fixed them