Graduate entry to medicine funding

**TheMedicBarbie** · 02-07-2012, 05:52 PM

Hey everyone, Im aiming to write an article on the effects of the fee rise on graduates. I was wondering if anyone can complete the survey Changes to the graduate entry medicine funding system Survey it is only a single question. If anyone would like to add comments please post below or message me if you wish to remain annoymous

**impatient** · 03-07-2012, 04:48 PM

Sure i'll do it!

**TheMedicBarbie** · 05-07-2012, 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by impatient

Sure i'll do it!

Thank you the response so far has been brilliant, but the more people that do it the better

**busy_bookie** · 05-07-2012, 11:02 PM

(I've done the survey). So is there any news on how the funding will work out for those starting graduate courses in 2013, I keep looking but I can't seem to find it?

For me the answer is an emphatic no, I could not afford the fees. Seems like such a shame to me, at the moment weaker graduate applicants with money can apply to the 5 year course leaving the worse off to scrap it out with the best candidates for the 4 year course and now even this looks in doubt. I understand that the government can't afford to send everyone off to do all the degrees they want, but surely an exception can be retained for graduates taking medicine especially considering that 6 year courses for medicine are available and a graduate taking graduate medicine would spend 7 years studying. Its hard enough to get into medicine from a disadvantaged background, the graduate course gives people like myself a second chance. As I wait for the funding details to be released I'm busy preparig my application with voluntary work, paying for admissions tests, buying all the books and saving cash like crazy and still not even knowing if I can afford it.

**kingdizzii** · 06-07-2012, 12:22 AM

Is there actually any evidence that GEP entry medicine is on the way out due to fees or is that just conjecture?

I've been on this forum for some time now (quite a bit before registering) and there have been many excellent candidates that did not get a place into medicine, for them something as silly as UKCAT was the barrier. I know many people would not be able to afford 9k a year but gosh I do feel a lot of people here are kidding themselves into thinking that those that could have weaker applications, at absolute worst the people that got it might have lower UKCAT or GAMAT scores, besides that there are more than enough people that would have the money and academics to get in. Just have a look at the entry requirements for 2013 entry for graduates onto the 5 year course, some unis have increased their entry requirements! That to be shows there are plenty of people with the money AND academic qualities to get into the 5 year course as a graduate leave alone 4 year GEP.

I think people in this country have had it nice and I mean really really really nice, GEP medicine is a second degree that we don't have a right to. My cousin sister in America is 22 and is going to Harvard university to study medicine, she did 4 years in college and then went into medicine and believe that is how medicine is taught there, it's always GEP. She's paying in excess of $50K a year and that's apparently the standard there, in this country even paying 9k a year is pocket money for graduate medicine when compared to the actual amount it costs to train a doctor.

I'm not rich, after A Levels I worked for two years for medicine and put some money together. When my times comes I hope to apply and will be able to afford the £9k a year fees through my own hard work, I believe there are many people that would be able to do the same and have the academic requirements.

**new2newmedia** · 06-07-2012, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by kingdizzii

Is there actually any evidence that GEP entry medicine is on the way out due to fees or is that just conjecture?

I've been on this forum for some time now (quite a bit before registering) and there have been many excellent candidates that did not get a place into medicine, for them something as silly as UKCAT was the barrier. I know many people would not be able to afford 9k a year but gosh I do feel a lot of people here are kidding themselves into thinking that those that could have weaker applications, at absolute worst the people that got it might have lower UKCAT or GAMAT scores, besides that there are more than enough people that would have the money and academics to get in. Just have a look at the entry requirements for 2013 entry for graduates onto the 5 year course, some unis have increased their entry requirements! That to be shows there are plenty of people with the money AND academic qualities to get into the 5 year course as a graduate leave alone 4 year GEP.

I think people in this country have had it nice and I mean really really really nice, GEP medicine is a second degree that we don't have a right to. My cousin sister in America is 22 and is going to Harvard university to study medicine, she did 4 years in college and then went into medicine and believe that is how medicine is taught there, it's always GEP. She's paying in excess of $50K a year and that's apparently the standard there, in this country even paying 9k a year is pocket money for graduate medicine when compared to the actual amount it costs to train a doctor.

I'm not rich, after A Levels I worked for two years for medicine and put some money together. When my times comes I hope to apply and will be able to afford the £9k a year fees through my own hard work, I believe there are many people that would be able to do the same and have the academic requirements.

Hello kingdizzii,

I can see your post being pretty unpopular but I’m fairly sympathetic. It’s probably helped by me being one of the minority who will be paying the 9k fees upfront.

I think an undergraduate medical degree costs about £150k to deliver so £9k per year is pretty small. Also, as you say, there is no shortage of people who want to be Drs and (although more competitive) the GEP schemes as they currently stand ensure that nobody is excluded from medicine based on finances.

I do however think there has been complacency. There are lots of other options that haven’t been explored for graduates on the 5 year degrees: e.g. letting graduates have a second fee loan if they pay off their first one or offering them a fee loan if they take a different contract that pays them less/ties them to the NHS once qualified.

The other sound option is to expand GEP. I don’t know the details of the calculations but I have been led to believe that GEP medics are less likely to drop out/leave medicine and I have also been led to believe that we have a net shortage of domestically trained doctors and have to pay over the odds to recruit from abroad – often from countries that really aren’t well placed to lose their medics.

I sometimes cynically wonder whether the medical profession is quite keen to keep its numbers down….?

Final point on my mini - rant is that the government takes all the flack on this. Of course, they reduced teaching grants etc (although as I understand it STEM subjects were not so badly hit?) but the universities have pushed for the cap on fees to be increased and they have the power to offer grants/bursaries to graduates if they wish. The buck might stop with the government but I think the unis have got off pretty lightly in all this.

**TheMedicBarbie** · 07-07-2012, 06:25 AM

Hey guys I have the figures and applications for 5year for grads have remained nearly the same. Personally I can afford 5year from 2014 due to working however for some people this won't be an option. Personally UKCAT is the weakest part of my application for uni like Durham/Newcastle which I would prefer for personnal reason and the cut off for five year is a lot lower than the four year.

Why because my family have a decent standard of living and can afford to support me while I save for the degree should I be able to use this to my advantage over a candidate that cannot afford it and therefore has to score much higher on the UKCAT.

All we ask for is a loan for tuition fees which along as we remain in the profession we will pay back anyway unlike a significant proportion of graduates. In addition graduates going into course like nursing get two years fees paid that is 18k if the government was to give us a 5k loan in years 1-4 of the five year course (ie what you get in the first year of GEM) that would amount to 20k. Which seen as we are more likely to pay it back than nurse seems fair to me

Summary - why is it one rule for one and not the other???

**busy_bookie** · 07-07-2012, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by kingdizzii

I've been on this forum for some time now (quite a bit before registering) and there have been many excellent candidates that did not get a place into medicine, for them something as silly as UKCAT was the barrier. I know many people would not be able to afford 9k a year but gosh I do feel a lot of people here are kidding themselves into thinking that those that could have weaker applications

There lies the difference in our opinions, I think that candidates should be selected based on their... urm... CLINICAL APTITUDE! Obviously to you this is some daft formality! Much better to select candidates who have rich parents, who knows perhaps thats a good measure of the ability of someone for medicine? Thanks for the irrelivant comparison to the American education system, obviously things are different in different countries, telling us about the situation that your "cousin sister" (whatever kind of relative that is!) is in hasn't strengthed your argument at all.

**TheMedicBarbie** · 07-07-2012, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by busy_bookie

There lies the difference in our opinions, I think that candidates should be selected based on their... urm... CLINICAL APTITUDE! Obviously to you this is some daft formality! Much better to select candidates who have rich parents, who knows perhaps thats a good measure of the ability of someone for medicine? Thanks for the irrelivant comparison to the American education system, obviously things are different in different countries, telling us about the situation that your "cousin sister" (whatever kind of relative that is!) is in hasn't strengthed your argument at all.

UKCAT is horrid personally id like to see them asses it with some kind of OSCE at interview rather than your ability to match shapes!!!!!

I've conducted INR clinics, worked with st Johns and going to volunteer doing malaria screening in Africa I think my references off that lot are alot more useful than some computer tests in determining my clinical applitude

Btw the way you go on about rich parents just make you sound jelous, as graduate students have the potential to make their own money to fund voluntary work etc

**busy_bookie** · 07-07-2012, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by TheMedicBarbie

UKCAT is horrid personally id like to see them asses it with some kind of OSCE at interview rather than your ability to match shapes!!!!!

I've conducted INR clinics, worked with st Johns and going to volunteer doing malaria screening in Africa I think my references off that lot are alot more useful than some computer tests in determining my clinical applitude

Btw the way you go on about rich parents just make you sound jelous, as graduate students have the potential to make their own money to fund voluntary work etc

The UKCAT was put together by institutions that provide medical training, the people that will teach you probably see it as an effective way of testing someones ability, seems that you are biting the hand that feeds you. BTW you aren't being tested for your ability to match shapes, you are being tested for your ability to construct and test a hypothesis in the face of confounding information (as you must do in a scientific experiment).

Your suggestion makes no sense... Why would you be tested for clinical skills for entrance to a course which is supposed to be teaching (amongst other things) clinical skills?

All the voluntary things you have mentioned show enthusiasm for health care but they don't prove that you can pass a demanding degree, I know a lot of people in St Johns who are barely able to add two numbers, membership of a voluntary orginisation can only show your enthusiasm, there is barely any skill in the first aid provided.

Yes graduate students can make money, but can anyone seriously be expected to earn £20,000 a year whilst studying for a demanding degree? Evidently the governmant thinks not. What can I say? Watching people get places you want because of circumstance rather than ability leaves a bitter taste.