Graduate entry to medicine funding

[TheMedicBarbie]

I feel like giving up here the UKCAT is a crap way of testing clinical aptitude but it's the best we have!!!! The idea of using an OSCe is that the unis between them could organise a summer school say three weeks run around the country your are taught basic science, skills etc then tested on them at the end instead of relying on polymetric tests which is all UKCAT is!

I've passed a demanding degree and have designed experiments to test a hypothesis as you say and I have done it in practice ie in a health care environment so please don't try and tell me a little test is better than hard evidence I can do it.

I really don't understand how you can say people get places on GEM on circumstances over ability as nearly all use UKCAt or GAMSAT to select for interview then look at voluntary work etc which I'm sorry everyone can do. I'm 100% funding all my extra evidence including Africa through working.

Why do you need 20k the fees for GEM is 3k in first year then you get a fee loan for the rest. So you could take a gap year save 3k then apply. If you mean people getting into the 5th as parents can afford it that life, I've worked through out my biomedical degree, set up a buisness and got professional registration as a biomed to fund the 5yr from 2014 with the only help from my parents being living at home rent free

[busy_bookie]

I feel like giving up here the UKCAT is a crap way of testing clinical aptitude but it's the best we have!!!!

Do you have any evidence for that? Seems like a fairly effective method to me... I don't really understand what your problem with it is. Thats great that you have done the things that the UKCAT is designed to test for, but obviously a lot of people haven't, thats the point, the UKCAT is designed to compare people from different backgrounds in a fair way, its all very well to say that you have done it, but that still doesn't say how well you have done it, I've driven a car, but I'm not an F1 racer and I never will be.

I really don't understand how you can say people get places on GEM on circumstances over ability

I've never said that...

If you mean people getting into the 5th as parents can afford it that life

This is what I am talking about, and "thats life" is not a satisfactory answer to a problem. Its an absolutely tragedy that students who were not the best candidates are being trained because of their situation rather than their ability. The NHS has a responsibility to provide the best possible healthcare and the government has a responsibility to promote social mobility.

the only help from my parents being living at home rent free

Well lucky you. Some of us aren't so fortunate, the five year entry requirements are lower, so rich people are able to buy themselves into medicine, thats my point, and I think its unfair.

[new2newmedia]

Busy_bookie, I don't understand why you are taking this up with TheMedicBarbie.
From her post I thought she seemed to largely agree with you?

On the UKCAT I certainly disagree with you. I think it is an efficient way of cutting down applications, little more. It's 90mins or so with a huge amount of luck and some unis (4 year and 5 year) will throw your forms in the bin purely on the basis of how you did in it. The universities that seemed to be bothered about genuinely widening entry into medicine from disadvantaged backgrounds have special courses for this purpose and don't apply the UKCAT so bluntly (I'm referring to the A106 courses at Southampton, UEA, Nottingham etc).

With the exam itself I fail to see how doing %s super fast is a good way of measuring clinical aptitude. Anyone can get good at that given the practice. More to your point, anyone can get good at it if they throw money at it with books, online question banks, courses and so forth. In my opinion all the UKCAT has done is create a further hoop that those with financial support can jump through.

I kind of see your point about graduates on the undergraduate courses but I don't think it's overly compelling. Are you saying that you don't think you are a strong enough candidate for the GEP courses but you might be stronger than some of the richer graduates, who themselves would have needed to be better than the masses of 18 year olds who they competed against? It's not unreasonable to see why the government/NHS/universities aren't making this their top priority.

Although competition (and UKCAT) may be higher for graduate medicine, entry requirements are often higher for the 5 year. Warwick, SGUL and Nottingham don't care about your GCSEs or A levels. The latter two are as happy with a 2:2 as they are with a first I believe (someone please correct if that's not true). What's more the funding for GEP is super generous given the subsidised loans, fees and tax breaks we've all already received as students. 10+ years ago I would have thought the idea that you could get terrible GCSEs, A levels, a 2:2 and come back to get a place at medical school would have been pretty inconceivable.

Finally, you talk about social mobility. I'd say if you've come from a difficult background and got yourself in a position to apply for graduate medicine (at which point it is all down to you) then I see that as a pretty major victory for social mobility.

Yes, I am very fortunate to be able to afford the undergraduate tuition fees, however begruding me my place will not help you. Essentially, I think your time would be best spent focussing on your GEP application.

I do sincerely hope it works out for you.

[busy_bookie]

Thank you new2newmedia for a well reasoned response. Obviously I am easily drawn into arguments (some would say I create them...) I suppose my frustration stems from meeting graduates on the five year course at HYMS who aren't exactly "top" candidates and knowing people applying for medicine this year who are academically weaker than me but able to apply to the five year course. When this thread was started the funding arrangements for the four year course were yet to be released, apparently they will remain the same as last year for the four year course which is as you have said very generous. I don't especially begrudge those graduates on the five year course, if I was in the same situation obviously I would do the same. I am fairly confident that I can get a place on the four year course, and yes I should probably focus on that rather than petty bickering but you know its hard to resist. Regarding the UKCAT there are plenty of people who won't be able to do well in the test given any amount of practice, its probably one of the few parts of the application process which does put people on fairly level playing field.

[TheMedicBarbie]

Thank you new2newmedia for a well reasoned response. Obviously I am easily drawn into arguments (some would say I create them...) I suppose my frustration stems from meeting graduates on the five year course at HYMS who aren't exactly "top" candidates and knowing people applying for medicine this year who are academically weaker than me but able to apply to the five year course.

Thats the main point that annoys me, medicine isn't all academics yes we need brilliant academics in research however we also need doctors who can make patient comfortable and communicate on their level. I can remember when Unis were offering ABB at Alevel now those offer don't happen yet medicine hasn't magically got harder in 5years.

Leveling the playing field isn't the best if you make it so the best candidates don't even get past the initial paper shift!!!!! i.e id rather have someone as my doctor that is well rounded(Personal statement), approachable (interview) and dedicated (voluntary work) who may have to work a little harder but after uni keeps up with the latest developments over someone who shines in UKCAT but isn't as dedicated so is less likely to be up on the research.

Can you not see that to invest the money into the 5year course (I no people that are doing it with their OWN money) they must really want medicine. Yes some people have it easier but that's life TBH I hope we never live in a world where everyone has exactly the same as then what will motivate the kids of tomorrow to push forward science and technology or build businesses!

[kingdizzii]

Themedicbarbie it's not that medicine has got harder, more that A Levels have become easier over the years which is why A Level requirements have increased. My chemistry teacher got AAA 20 years ago which at that time was rare, people got into medicine with much less. There are so so many people that don't get into medicine whom could get through the course with no issues, that's why these amplitude tests like UKCAT have come around. It's not there to see if someone will make a good doctor or not, it's so cut down applicants and nothing more. I think it's pretty well known that Kings only look at the 25% UKCAT scores when deciding their medicine applicants. So the other 75% Kings don't even take a glace at, I'm pretty sure some of them would have the academics to study medicine. You have example have a very strong application in terms of degree class and work experience but that's only useful if you get a good UKCAT score, a silly little exam is what ultimately decides if you even get a look in. I absolutely adore how unis like St Georges handle things though, once you get the GAMSAT cutoff they know nothing about your academics and it's the interview that matters. That means someone like me with a scientific background has no advantage over someone with an arts degree, how it should be IMO because GAMSAT shows you have the scientific knowledge and the medicine degree is there............to teach you medicine.

busy_bookie I don't like at all you insinuating that only people with rich parents can get into the 5 year course, believe it or not people can actually work and earn money for themselves without the need of financial aid from family. You could easily work for a few years and put some money aside for the 5 year course if you so wish, if not apply to the 4 year degrees. People on this forum going onto the 5 year degree will be working weekends during term time and then the holidays to pay for the degree, where there's a will there's a way. My cousin sister (this is a female that is also a cousin, not sure why you were confused by that) will be in $200k debt which mommy and daddy did not pay for, just saying we have got it really REALLY good even as graduates going onto the 5 year degree. You are making UKCAT out to be more than what it is, it's nothing more than a way to cut down applicants.

Also your St Johns comment, ugh goodness you seem quite full of yourself. :/

[Martigan]

With the exam itself I fail to see how doing %s super fast is a good way of measuring clinical aptitude. Anyone can get good at that given the practice. More to your point, anyone can get good at it if they throw money at it with books, online question banks, courses and so forth. In my opinion all the UKCAT has done is create a further hoop that those with financial support can jump through.

I would beg to differ in quiet strong terms. Throwing money at the UKCAT is like throwing money in the bin. It's basically just a glorified IQ test and once you are used to the question style, it's down to raw ability, plus a little luck. Just like on IQ tests you can boost your score a little by having familiarity with the question style. But you can get this from the down loadable tests to get familiar with the layout and basic questions and get better question depth by buying one of the question books. But once you have familiarity with the style, no amount of cramming is going to get you better.

So if the UKCAT is so useless, why do you think Medschools invented it?

Its a cheap efficient way of having an rough estimate of a candidates intelligence. But it is only a rough estimate. Like any exam there is an element of luck as to how you click with your question selection. However there is also luck in any process. In an interview you also have an element of luck in how you click with the interviewer.

Medschools are doing there best to find an efficient way of selecting candidates, and while far from perfect its still better than many other methods that have been used. Why would they have invested so much into it, if it doesn't meet their needs?

[kingdizzii]

UKCAT is a smart way to cutting down applicants, there are more people with the requirements than places for sure. Were it not present goodness knows what the requirements would bed for medicine, I'm inclined to believe Cambridge's A*AA would be standard, probably more actually.

What methods were used before UKCAT?

[Medic_88]

Jousting competitions?

[kingdizzii]

Don't be silly lad, pretty sure it was a dance competition. I had moves back in the day, would have got a place with no issues but the joints aren't what they once were.