Requests for Testimonials - Graduate Entry Applicants

[DPSM]

Guys/Gals,

I am compiling some data through judicious application of the Freedom of Information Act about University's attitudes towards certain demographics of graduates who apply for Graduate Entry Medicine. My aim is to establish whether or not Universities with GEP routes have "eliteist" tendencies when it comes to who they recruit to their courses.

Thus far I have two responses, and just to illustrate some telling statistics:

- At King's College London for year entry 2008/09 almost half (43%) of those granted entry to their GEP course had graduated from the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge.

- At King's College London during the last four years of entry, no graduate of the Open University has enrolled in their GEP course.

- Again at King's College London, as high as 81% of their places have gone to graduates of Russel Group Universities (essentially the 20 leading Universities in the country, which represent around 16% of the total number of Higher Education bodies).

- At the University of Nottingham, Russel Group graduates again take the lion's share of places, as high as 65.2% in 2006.

- However, at Nottingham, there is much less of an attitude of deference towards Oxbridge graduates, who at most have made up 13% of the students enrolling (and last year only one Oxbridge graduate enrolled).

- Nottingham have admitted two Open University graduates in the past four years.

Anyway, I am looking at compiling a report about this and all of the forthcoming data. I would like the testimonials of users of New Media Medicine who are either currently enrolled on a GEP course, have applied to a GEP course, are in the process of applying or have graduated from one.

With that in mind, if anybody interested could answer the following questions (your testimony will be kept anonymous), it would be highly useful:

Please state your disposition with respect to Graduate Entry Medicine (current student/graduate/previous applicant/about to apply)

Please indicate which institutions you applied to, are studying at, and/or intend to apply to

Please give your thoughts over how transparent you found the process of applying for graduate entry medicine

Please give your thoughts over how you took the decision to apply to/decide to apply to the institutions you are/have doing/done so

Please also give your thoughts over whether or not you think the method of selection for Graduate Entry Medicine in general is fair - use specific institutional examples if you wish

Thanks,

DPSM

[Chwirkytheappleboy]

So do you consider only selecting elite candidates to be a bad thing then?

[DPSM]

I think students should have a right to make a fully informed decision about the attitudes prospective graduate medical schools have towards certain demographics of graduates.

I am also deeply resentful of the almost total stranglehold that Oxbridge graduates have over so much of society, and thus do not look kindly upon Universities whose attitude perpetuates this trend.

The data will be of use to everybody, Russel group or not.

[Chwirkytheappleboy]

So you don't look kindly upon Universities that appear to favour Oxbridge graduates... and yet you're planning on applying to KCL despite having stated in your first post that they take on a very high percentage of their students from the Russell Group? You're also not planning on applying to Nottingham although you say that their attitude is more in line with your feelings on the subject.

I think I would probably hazard a guess that you're on some kind of bitterness/jealously fuelled campaign to convince yourself that if you don't get into med school, then it'll be entirely due to discriminatory attitudes towards candidates who didn't attend prestigious universities

... and before you ask, no, my Alma Mater is not in the Russell Group

[DPSM]

Heh - why on earth do you have an interest in personalising this issue? Do you have some connection to one of the Universities?

The Universities listed in my signature were put there before I began submitting FOI requests (which I only even thought up last week). The data is just starting to come through. Obviously once I have it all I will amend my decisions accordingly if necessary.

If 81% of the places are going to Graduates from 16% of the Universities (Russel Group), then one of several conclusions might reasonably be deduced:

1) A disproportionately large number of the applications come from Russel Group Universities, and therefore the statistical argument follows that they would naturally take up a disproportionate number of places.

2) If the above is not true and the applicants are evenly distributed throughout the Universities network, then there is such a diaspora in quality between Russel Group and non-Russel Group Universities that the quality of graduates they produce are of different orders of magnitude in terms of academic achievement, aptitude, depth of relevant work experience, drive, enthusiasm and quality of performance at interview.

3) Again in the event that the applicants are evenly 'peppered' throughout HE institutions, places such as KCL have some element of prejudice against those who are not of the Russel Group persuasion.

Of course in order for any real conclusion to be reached more data will need to be acquired, and I am in the process of acquiring it.

Either way, for a student who has graduated from an otherwise excellent HE institution which simply happens no to be in the Russel Group (and there are many), the statistics are not encouraging. If you are from the OU in particular the evidence thus far is not at all encouraging (the aforementioned stats give the profile for roughly 500 or so students who enrolled into GE Medicine, only two of whom were from the OU).

Perhaps you might want to address the statistics rather than the personality of somebody you have never met and know next to nothing about?

[gep2010]

Woah, interesting stats there. Am happy to help Do you want the background of our university education too (as a graduate?) or just anything Med related?

[DPSM]

Woah, interesting stats there. Am happy to help Do you want the background of our university education too (as a graduate?) or just anything Med related?

You can of course drop that in, all data will be useful

[adriantoll]

I think what Chwirkytheappleboy might have put a bit less combatively is that you say in your original post that the statistics are "telling" - but you point out in your later post that there are a wide variety of explanations for the difference in acceptance rates, including the possibility that applicants from Russell Group universities are simply better candidates. To make any interpretation of the data worthwhile - i.e. to make any kind of judgement about which of your explanations is most likely - you're going to have to somehow collect data on the varying levels of a common measure of "ability" of the candidates from those institutions. This isn't to say that the data isn't an interesting starting point, just that publishing it in the format that you show above will show absolutely nothing when it comes to whether the people selecting candidates have, as you put it, "elitist tendencies". Instead, it leaves people to use their own prejudices when interpreting that data.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if there were at least some "elitist" tendencies (in the sense that everyone finds it easier to like and understand people who are more like them), but I wouldn't like to hazard a guess as to whether they're pervasive, deep-seated or skew the results in any significant way based on your data as you're currently collecting it.

[DPSM]

Yes, the above data only provides initial indication, but one of the deep seated paranoias of many a University graduate (and one being revealed as having some justification given graduate employment data) is that a degree from a mid-level (let alone a lower-level) institution simply does not have equivalence with its Oxbridge counterpart, let alone its Russel group variant.

You cannot deduce 'reasons' from the above necessarily (there are a wide variety of possible reasons) but given the performance of the last four years, if you are not from a Russel Group university your chances of getting in to KCL GEP Medicine absolutely plummet.

That may be because the quality of graduates is vastly different or the quantity of applicants is different. Given that there is something approaching ~2,000 applicants for 24 places at KCL, I anticipate this explanation will be unlikely, but obviously need the corroborating data to make a particularly strong indication.

I also find it difficult to believe that the 10 or so Oxbridge graduates afforded places in one academic year were simply "better suited to medicine", totally nailed the UKCAT, provided blistering personal statements and had the most compelling body of work experience over the other 1,976 or so applicants and that being an Oxbridge graduate had no bearing at all on the decision making.

[moigescr]

I also find it difficult to believe that the 10 or so Oxbridge graduates afforded places in one academic year were simply "better suited to medicine", totally nailed the UKCAT, provided blistering personal statements and had the most compelling body of work experience over the other 1,976 or so applicants and that being an Oxbridge graduate had no bearing at all on the decision making.

I'm a KCL year 3 GPEP. Obviously, I can't comment on the 1,976 who did not make it... but in my cohort of students, the Oxbridge bunch who made it are terrifyingly bright -- they did totally nail the UKCAT (well, in my year it was the MSAT), they had amazing life experiences with no doubt sizzling personal statements and they have pretty stupendous work experience!

The truth is GPEP medicine in general, and GPEP medicine at KCL in particular, is incredibly competitive -- as is getting into Oxbridge/Russell group. Oxbridge/Russell group grads are a self-selected group of high-achievers; it can't therefore come as a surprise that they are disproportionately represented in GPEP entry. I won't comment on whether I think this is fair or appropriate -- but if your criteria for entry and academic and personal excellence it's seem logical.

To defend KCL, whilst their GPEP program is very Oxbridge, this belies their commitment to extended participation -- the 5 year course is very mixed (and has more female than male students!) and they have an excellent EMDP programme to assist less advantaged students into and through med school.

Lastly, most of the students who have most impressed me in my cohort (both as excellent academics but also as kind, empathetic and skilled clinicians) have not been Oxbridge... make of that what you will.

Finally, to all applicants, good luck!