Bit of a dilemma

[aspirant doc]

Exactly, so two options, both ending at the same time. One option results in my being worse-than-destitute, and the other doesn't.

You are being very melodramatic and a bit unrealistic. Ever thought of getting a job while on the five year course?!?!

Loads of matures do that, some earn upwards of £10K per year, and that does not include student loan. You have more time off a five year course than John Wayne's safety catch for earning money.

Man yourself up and take the place you are offered. You may not be offered one next year.

Good luck.

[Chwirkytheappleboy]

Can you find a way to reduce your outgoings? For example, we're going to move into a smaller place so we have no/minimal mortgage.

I've been extremely frugal over the last couple of years to accommodate the fact that I'm applying to medical school. In all honesty, there's not really anything I can do to reduce outgoings, I'm already a minimalist

Finally, I don't know what plans are afoot with the election this year but I imagine it's not out of the realms of possibility that fees or the fee structure in general may be significantly different for 2011 entry. It'd be sick if you turned down an offer this year, got your dream 4-year course next year but discovered the government now wanted to charge you £10k fees and the NHS bursary had disappeared...

Yeah that's something else I've thought about. Not quite sure how to plan for that, so it'll have to come into the equation. Having said that, if the structure changes that drastically, it'll have an extremely negative impact on all graduate applicants, and realistically although I'm anticipating fees to go up, I think that a devastatingly dramatic change is fairly unlikely

How much debt are you actually looking at with the 5 year?

Is this the only issue stopping you from taking the offer?

About £70k. As it was, doing the 4 year course was going to be a big sacrifice. The 5 year course is just insane. It's not that the issue is "stopping" me taking the offer, obviously I could take it, but what I'm trying to figure out is whether or not it's worth the risk to try again for the 4 year. Afterall, another 12 months waiting isn't that bad, it's just the problem is that there's no guarantees

Don't overestimate your level of control over this situation. Just because you've had a bit of feedback and you think it's something you can fix doesn't mean you are a shoe-in for GEP entry next year. Delaying a year because you believe that you'll fare better next year is a serious error in judgement when you take into consideration the painfully high level of competition on GEP courses.

I don't have any unrealistic ideas about this. I know full well that it would be a risk, and that's exactly why I'm in the position of having a dilemma - if I could say for certain that I'd get a GEP place next year I'd definitely wait the extra 12 months! As it is, I need to assess the situation carefully and weigh up the options. It's not like I'm just saying "oh I'll get a GEP place next year so I can throw away the 5 year offer..."

you've already got 4 straight rejections for GEP, isn't that telling you something!!

I think "4 straight rejections" is probably a slight exaggeration... I had 3 interviews, and only one straight rejection. The offer for the 5 year course actually came from an application to a GEP, but they just make some 5 year offers to people who didn't quite get on the GEP

its only an extra 12 months, and you will have more free time to work and earn money, offsetting any extra expense, it really is a no brainer this thread.

It's not just the extra 12 months (although bear in mind that it costs about £14k a year to live in London), it's also the huge difference in available funding between the two different courses. As I mentioned in my previous post, the difference in cost vastly outweighs any reasonable amount of money I could expect to earn through part time work. Much of what I have been saying has been in attempt to demonstrate that it's not quite the "no brainer" that some people seem to be claiming

One thought - if you choose not to take it up this year and then got offered a 5-year again next year, what would you do?

Well I'd cross that bridge if I came to it, but it's likely I'd take it. I'm earning a pretty good salary at the moment, and my financial position will be much better in 12 months time. At the moment, I just haven't really had much time to save up much (I only graduated and started work 18 months ago)

You are being very melodramatic and a bit unrealistic. Ever thought of getting a job while on the five year course?!?!

Yes - see previous post

Man yourself up and take the place you are offered. You may not be offered one next year.

This isn't a question of "being a man". At the end of the day, if I come to the logical conclusion that the most appropriate decision is to take the offer now, then I will do so. But it's a matter of making a calculated decision that I am debating now. "Manning up" is not part of an objective decision making process - it's irrelevant.

[aspirant doc]

I can't see anything in any of your posts where you mention getting paid work while at uni.

All I meant was - and phrased tongue in cheek - was that a 5 year is not as bad as you seem to think and that you are staring a gift horse in the mouth. Genuinely, you may not get a place on a GEP next year, that is a very real possibility.

I don't want to get into your sums, but £70K seems a very hefty view of your debt on a 5 year.

[Chwirkytheappleboy]

I can't see anything in any of your posts where you mention getting paid work while at uni.

List out the main differences between the course you've got and the hypothetical one you might get next year. For you, as you've pointed out, the cost difference is the biggest but can that be offset by other things? E.g. getting work in the holidays/evenings as the pace is so much easier?

Yeah I've done all the calculations to great detail, and the cost difference (3 extra years of tuition fees plus an extra year of living in London without income, and minus the extra 3 years of NHS bursary) vastly outweighs any potential income that I could reasonably assume I'd be able to earn

I don't want to get into your sums, but £70K seems a very hefty view of your debt on a 5 year.

5 years living costs in London at a (minimalist - most people spend more than this) rate of £14k, plus 4 years of tuition fees at £3300-£3500 (rising with inflation), minus a final year NHS bursary of around £3k, makes a total cost of about £80k for the course, not including course materials. I also have a £16k debt from my first (4 year) degree. So I'm looking at a sum of around £95-100k. Given my current savings, and potential future earnings for the first two years (I have several friends on the KCL course who have all said it's very difficult to earn money during the clinical years), I'm anticipating I can get that figure down to about £70k

Of course, that assumes I can even get hold of the money... maximum student loans available sum up to about £30k (can't get tuition fee loans as a graduate) so the rest would need to come from much more expensive bank loans etc

[aspirant doc]

I think you mind is very firmly set! All the best mate.

[Chwirkytheappleboy]

Actually it's not. I'm just trying to show you that my concerns are genuine and based on cold hard facts. I don't know your personal circumstances but maybe you're in a position to be able to afford any amount of money to do any degree you want. The sad fact of life though, is that undergraduate medicine is prohibitively expensive for many graduates, and that is why it's such a difficult decision.

I do want to do the course. But I'm not irresponsible - I want to make sure that I can actually finish the course. It's a waste of time if I have to drop out in the middle of my third year because I can't afford to cook baked beans on toast for dinner anymore.

I'm still in the decision making process, but what I'm trying to say is that it's not as simple as everyone's making it out to be

[aspirant doc]

Mate, trust me, I'm not in that financial position. But in my experience, and based on the experience of many others, you are in a good position to be able to earn at the very least £5k per year - knocking £25K off your figure. How much do you reckon you can earn over 5 years at medical school?

[GenericName]

"It's not just the extra 12 months (although bear in mind that it costs about £14k a year to live in London)"

Whhhaatt, that doesn't seem right. £14k is an insane amount to live in London. I spend around £10k a year and that's in a place with rent = £120ish a week plus bills of £50 a month. No idea what you think is 'minimalist' but if you're spending £14k a year to live here, you're doing it wrong....

Lets do the maths (yearly figures):
Rent - £6k (for me at the moment)
Bills - £1500 (based on 1/3 of the year so far, this is probs an overestimate due to winter)
Food - £1800 (assuming you never return home and have to pay you own food 365 days a year)
Supplies (books, pens etc) - £400
Travel - Varies greatly, but I would assume you'll live walking distance from the Uni you are at (otherwise you could get dirt cheap rent somewhere and commute)

Grand total of approx 10k, and bare in mind that's with pretty expensive rent, a very nice food allowance (most students will NOT spend that much on food) and a decent supplies allowance.
If you wanted to be 'minimal' I reckon you could shy that down to something around £8000. Even if you include fees in your estimate that's still 3k off the mark.

[Frank's mum]

I'd accept the King's offer and wait to see if they then change it to a 4 year offer once they have all decisions in from the offers they have made. They do this to some people every year. You should hear in the summer iof that's going to happen and then you could still decline the 5 year offer, although it may make it difficult to re-apply to King's.

As for the difference in finances between the two courses, as a SSM I did a huge spreadsheet of income and expenses for every medicine course (it was exploring the idea that people self select themselves for medicine due to reluctance to get into debt) and the difference between the Gep and the 5 year was not that much as there is much less opportunity to earn money in the shorter holidays. Also you need to be an independant student (check the rules for this) to qualify for the bursary, there are some students on the Gep who get only fees paid, nothing else, as they are not classed as independant.

I was on the 5 year (well, 6 with foundation), and managed to earn 6k per year and I have a child to take care of, a friend of mine earned much more as he had more spare hours and no child. I worked until Christmas of the fourth year and only stopped as I lost my job and decided it was a sign to concentrate on my studies, so you can work during clinical years.

[dotvicky]

Also, it's worth comparing your 5 year debt to your 4 year debt obviously, not just looking at the big number for the 5 year... the diffence might be less than the £25k that people think you can earn on a 5 year (which you wouldn't have time for on the 4 year).