Oldies for 2010

[469er]

1- Barts. That's where I really want to go.
2- King's. Do I have a decent chance? Is it worth a try? Still very unsure about this one...
3- Brighton. It seems a nice school and has a PBL curriculum. It's not far from London.
4- East Anglia. Also seems nice and also has PBL and their criteria may be more forgiving...
5- Keele. It may be a bit in the middle of nowhere but their criteria may also be more forgiving...
Next step: speak with the Admission's Office at King's and dependant on what they say include or exclude them.
If I don't get any information otherwise these will be my application choices...
Anyone wants to share something?

You have a bit of a mixed bag there, in terms of course design. King's is very traditional, UEA is right at the other end of the spectrum, Barts is PBL-heavy... Don't know anything about Keele I'm afraid, but whoever told you BSMS was a PBL course was wrong. It may be a new course, and is less traditional and more integrated than the old school programmes, but PBL it definitely isn't.

FWIW, I don't think you should think in terms of where will be forgiving. The weakest part of your application is your UKCAT, and it's not as though it's actually that weak - it's above average, and is well compensated for by everything else you're offering. And I wouldn't rule out King's.

Will PM you, probably tomorrow realistically!

[more_eggs_please]

Apart from the obvious what are the main differences between PBL and LBL?

[psjorge]

Apart from the obvious what are the main differences between PBL and LBL?

Sorry for asking, but what do you mean by LBL?

[elise_h]

Hi all

I've got my UKCAT tomorrow morning and I'm feeling nervous. I just need to stay calm, focus and not panic about the time which is the big issue....

Elise

[psjorge]

You have a bit of a mixed bag there, in terms of course design. King's is very traditional, UEA is right at the other end of the spectrum, Barts is PBL-heavy... Don't know anything about Keele I'm afraid, but whoever told you BSMS was a PBL course was wrong. It may be a new course, and is less traditional and more integrated than the old school programmes, but PBL it definitely isn't.

FWIW, I don't think you should think in terms of where will be forgiving. The weakest part of your application is your UKCAT, and it's not as though it's actually that weak - it's above average, and is well compensated for by everything else you're offering. And I wouldn't rule out King's.

Will PM you, probably tomorrow realistically!

469er, you're absolutely right, I do have a mixed bag! Conventional versus PBL, big city versus countryside, ...

You're also right about BSMS not being PBL-based. I was inaccurate as in reality, very few schools have a pure PBL currriculum. "Pure" PBL is hard to find, in the UK or anywhere in the world for that matter!

PBL implies that the student becomes pretty much responsible for his or her own learning and, consequently, success. On the other hand, the teacher must abandon its position of power in order to become a "facilitator". Neither of these are simple mentality changes...

On the other hand, research in educational psychology has not yet demonstrated beyond any doubt that PBL provides better learning outcomes. In fact, most of the studies conducted so far demonstrate that the objective learning outcomes reached through PBL are equivalent to those achieved under conventional teaching paradigms. What seems to be different is the fact that students under PBL tend to feel that their learning experience is more "pleasant".

Having said all this, what most schools actually have is a hybrid curriculum, mixing conventional teaching and evaluation methodologies (lectures, written exams, etc) with other student-centred ones (seminars, case-studying, PBL, presentations, etc).
Naturally, the proportions of this mix vary from school to school.



PS: have sent you a PM

[469er]

You're also right about BSMS not being PBL-based. I was inaccurate as in reality, very few schools have a pure PBL currriculum. "Pure" PBL is hard to find, in the UK or anywhere in the world for that matter!

Yeah, but, as I understand it, BSMS has virtually no PBL.

[469er]

Apart from the obvious what are the main differences between PBL and LBL?

@Pedro: I think LBL must be lecture-based learning, though I've never heard it put like that either.

more_eggs_please, I'm not sure there are any differences that aren't obvious, except to say that, as Pedro touches on above, many courses are not exclusively one thing or the other, and the exact mix, and consequent nature of the learning experience, is often hard for applicants to gauge accurately until they arrive at uni.

I'm often surprised at how many people here seem to apply to a mix of trad and PBL courses, because the day-to-day reality of each creates a very different educational experience, and it's very much a matter of horses for courses, IMO. Personally, I was very keen to study somewhere where people who knew stuff I didn't would teach me it. That is what I ended up with, and I'm very happy with my choice. The thought of groping towards a set of 'learning outcomes' with a group of equally unknowledgeable fellow students, who might or might not turn up/pull their weight/have compatible working styles, filled me with complete horror. I find it extraordinary that anyone would willingly choose this for their medical education, and equally extraordinary that it's claimed to be an effective way to learn. However, many people love it, and, despite the obligatory rumblings of 'lowered standards' etc etc that PBL has predictably attracted from the old school types, there is no evidence yet that it's any worse a way to study (unless someone here knows better?).

So, as I say, it's horses for courses, and, while I know that most people are happy just to get a place anywhere, I do think PBL versus trad is a conversation well worth having with oneself early on in the application process, because getting it wrong could mean 5 (or at least 2) years of misery and frustration.

[469er]

Hi all
I've got my UKCAT tomorrow morning and I'm feeling nervous. I just need to stay calm, focus and not panic about the time which is the big issue....
Elise

Remember also that the test is designed such that no one does as well as they feel they should. It's hard, when everyone applying to medicine is by definition intelligent and high-achieving, to do a test that you fail to finish and get caught out by, but it wouldn't be the blunt instrument of a screening tool that it unfortunately is if everyone got full marks. So keep it in proportion.

I also think the real thing is often easier than the practice material, plus mature students often do better than the littluns. So, as you say, stay calm. You have every reason to be confident.

[psjorge]

elise_h, a lot has been said about how to approach UKCAT and most of it is probably true! Having stated the obvious, that's not much to add except good luck!

469er, as usual, you are right about BSMS! I've gone through their website and propectus with a sharper eye and it is in fact a hybrid curriculum (too same extent aren't they all nowadays?). Let me quote their site:

In recent years there have been radical changes in the way medicine is taught. There has been a greater emphasis on the holistic treatment of patients and on involving patients (and their relatives) in decisions about their treatment and care.

There has also been an increasing recognition of the significance of the team of healthcare professionals, each with their own important but inter-connected roles in diagnosis, care and therapy.

Traditional lecture-based learning is supported by a skills-based and problem-solving approach, with group sessions and strong IT support.

While there will be some lectures, BSMS is a small and personal medical school and our emphasis throughout the degree is on small group academic and clinical teaching.

A wide range of teaching methods is used including problem-based learning, IT-based learning, practical classes in the laboratories and anatomy laboratory, seminars, guided individual study, clinical skills practice and clinical symposia, all supported by regular tutorials.

Individual patient studies, in which you will relate clinical findings and treatment to the underlying clinical and social sciences for your patient portfolio, will develop your understanding of the practice of medicine.

The issue of PBL versus LBL (lecture-based learning?!) is, to me quite, interesting because I have personal experience of both systems as I taught undergraduates for two years on a school that had PBL but currently teach on another that has a conventional curriculum. On the other hand, as I did a Master's Degree in Medical Education, this discussion was pretty recurrent on it's syllabus!

Having said this, I believe that the main differences are not, necessarily, the obvious ones and these are often seen out of context.

If you could bear with me for a moment I can present you with snap course on twentieth century educational psychology!

Generally speaking, in educational psychology there are three big schools of thought on how humans learn: behaviorism, humanism and cognitivism/constructivism.

- Behaviorism supports that animals (humans included) act arbitrarily and that these actions have certain consequences. Depending on its positive or negative effect, a particular action tends to be repeated or abandoned. In either case it's conditioned. This concept is called operant conditioning. Based on this, behaviours can be stimulated or refrained by appropriate reinforcement programming.

Let me give you a simple example that everybody can relate to: say you have a young child and he or she puts his or hers fingers into the electrical plug on the wall. As this is quite dangerous what do you do? You probably give the child a slap on the hand. If this set of action/consequence is repeated enough the child will eventually stop doing that as nobody likes to be spanked (some do, but that's another story...)! this is negative reinforcement. On the other hand, if the child says "mama" then you probably find that pretty cute and smile, kiss and hug he or she. Everybody likes to be smiled at, kissed and hugged so he or she will repeat the word "mama". This is positive reinforcement.

Now you're thinking "that's like Pavlov's dog!". Correct, Pavlov was a key figure in behaviorism!

- Humanism supports the idea that animals (and humans alike...) have a innate tendency to improve their condition. This concept is called actualizing tendency and could be defined as the tendency to develop one's capacities to the fullest. Associated with this concept is also the role attributed to emotions. Based on this ideas, there are no teachers but only facilitators as we learn for ourselves. On the other hand, learning is also related to our emotional engagement with a given topic. If we're passionate about a certain topic we study and learn it without effort. On the other hand if we dislike a certain discipline then studying it is a nightmare.

- Cognitivism/constructivism says that reality is but what we make of it in the sense that we build up (construct) a personal view of reality. This is to say that knowledge is an on-going construction that evolves as we add meanings to it. The key concept here is meaning constructing.

Again, let me give an example: imagine the concept of death. What's death to a three-year old? What does it mean? Probably it does not mean anything. As we grow older, we start to build up death starts to mean something. It can mean that the little red fish stopped moving once out of the water but it can also mean that granny is suddenly no longer there. As we grow older and wiser death will mean different things. Even as adults death can have several meanings depending on our relation to it!


But now you may be asking what does this have to do you PBL or LBL?

Well, PBL aims at a student-centred approach to learning on a humanistic and constructivist view: a problem is presented, our curiosity is aroused, we are emotionally engaged with seeking the answer and so we build up our knowledge on top of what we already know and discover for ourselves.

On the other hand LBL relies much more on a behaviourist approach as we are provided with what we're suppose to learn and if we learn it well we're rewarded (we have good grades) if we do not learn it well we're punished (we fail to pass!).



Did this in any way answered your question? Was it too much psychology crap?

[469er]

Well, PBL aims at a student-centred approach to learning on a humanistic and constructivist view: a problem is presented, our curiosity is aroused, we are emotionally engaged with seeking the answer and so we build up our knowledge on top of what we already know and discover for ourselves.

On the other hand LBL relies much more on a behaviourist approach as we are provided with what we're suppose to learn and if we learn it well we're rewarded (we have good grades) if we do not learn it well we're punished (we fail to pass!).

Hmm, well maybe. But I think there are also a lot of more personalised issues. For example, I think the style of teaching you became used to at school, and how well it served you, is very relevant. I, as everyone here knows, am 102, which means that I was educated in an era when children sat in rows and listened respectfully while the teacher told you how it was. I am consequently very comfortable with the lecture-based style of teaching, especially as nowadays it's supplemented with the option to ask questions and do your own research, and shored up with small-class teaching and consolidation (at my uni, at least). This is a very valid issue for mature applicants, who may be less familiar and comfortable with modern learning-by-portfolio approaches to education, and students from countries where the education system is more formal.

Personality also makes a difference. Some people are get-stuck-in types, and others prefer to watch and learn. No one is arguing with the fact that people learn better when they feel engaged, but what engages people is not the same across the board. I feel very turned off by PBL methods, for me it feels like building on sand, which alienates me from the learning process and makes me lose confidence. But I find the enthusiasm of lecturers for their subject very infectious, for example, which then becomes a virtuous circle of learning and enquiry. Much of studying medicine is about learning how to go out of your comfort zone, but most students need to feel reasonably within it for their basic pre-clinical sciences education, IMO.

Finally, circumstances make a difference. The whole point about PBL is that it's deeply cooperative and therefore involves other people. This is all well and good, but fitting in with others' needs and preferences can be the last straw when you're a very, very, busy mature student with work, family or other commitments to fit around your studies. I wanted to be able to organise my workload according to nobody's needs but my own - PBL would have made that very hard.

So I think these (and doubtless others) are issues worth thinking about if you have any choice at all about where you apply.

Sorry, Elise, we've completely hijacked your thread, haven't we... Hope your UKCAT went well.