HELP ! Will there be a job for us all ?

[DH2005]

What reputation would that be? I have only ever known Daedalus to make intelligent, constructive criticism.

[rachelm]

What reputation would that be? I have only ever known Daedalus to make intelligent, constructive criticism.

Then you and I must be reading different forums

As far as I can see, he left a GEP after 6 months because being a doctor led to poorer pay and less kudos than he'd thought, and has popped up to spread doom and gloom on the forum ever since. This isn't personal and I'm certainly not the first person to say this, before the mods pop up and kick my arse

[nas007bond]

hi,

for those of you that think a job will be found in USA and Austrailia/New Zealand - think again!

It is very difficult to settle in USA as a doctor - do you think they are short of doctors? I dont think so. The training stucture is very different, and often, doctors from abroad have to pass very, very difficult examinations (such as borad of diplomate or something similar) -

- american exams have "cutting edge/research" related questions in the papers. Some of the foreign doctors have no clue about such research and give wrong answers. Some do pass - but its not a high percentage.

Similarly, Auss/NZ are not short either - for heavens sake, they have their OWN doctors to employ!

To work in Saudi - well its 50/50. Mostly Saudi hospitals are run by American consultants and some British consultants. Again in Saudi, there is a preference to hire american qualified doctors.

But, if any body is lucky enough to get a job in Saudi Araia/Dubai here are some of the benefits:

In UK, the SHO may get £35K+ salary, but we all know in reality thats £24,000 and the rest is tax.

- in arabia, there is no such thing as tax - the governments there make money from oil (we know this). So for example a british SHO going for Saudi can expect £40K salary (otherwise if it was lower than UK, nobody would go abroad would they?) - BUT this is TAX FREE!!! It works out at £3000/4000 per month. This is consultant/GP type income in UK!!!
- Free house accomodation, bunglows and property style we (from UK) can ONLY dream of.
- Petrol is dirt cheap, an average person in dubai drives a 2.5/3000CC car, simply because they can afford to.
etc etc.....

[yazoo]

There may be the very occaisional job with 1000 applicants, but they are few and far between. Some jobs are just extremely popular - eg 2 year SHO rotation in surgery in London area. This is the same in any field of work - some jobs are just very competitive.

I thought that all UK grads were guarenteed foundation jobs as they have not yet completed their training (hence only provisional registration on completion of degree). At the moment there are enough foundation jobs for all UK graduates - I think this is an official quota and will remain. Hence my comment about being harder to get into med school where ratio is much more competitive than 1:1 for GEP courses for example.

And jobs in Oz/NZ are reasonably easy to get at HO/SHO level, it's just that you can't get more senior jobs unless you want to do something like rural medicine (cos u can't get a permanent VISA unless you're a mega Dr (fully trained and internationally reknowned) or u want to work in a shortage area)

There is obviously a degree of chaos surrounding SHO posts at the moment with the introduction of F2 posts, but there is no reason to think that thousands of drs are going to be unemployed long-term. As Jonty said - people are just going to have to be more mobile and flexible about career choices. But it's hard when you have more than yourself to consider...

I'm still going to think positive tho - I'm doing a great course and Ican't wait to qualify

[rachelm]

I'm still going to think positive tho - I'm doing a great course and Ican't wait to qualify

Good luck I hope we all get jobs at the end of it, I have some faith that it'll be OK somehow. Life isn't all easy and handed to you on a plate, I don't see why a medical career should be any different!

[Daedalus]

Then you and I must be reading different forums

As far as I can see, he left a GEP after 6 months because being a doctor led to poorer pay and less kudos than he'd thought, and has popped up to spread doom and gloom on the forum ever since. This isn't personal and I'm certainly not the first person to say this, before the mods pop up and kick my arse

It is delightful to see that ad hominem arguments (go look it up if you don't understand) are regarded as a useful contribution to the discussion. I don't really care what rachelm thinks of me or my view - I know that I am not alone in these views.

While I was at medical school at least 2 consultants advised me to 'get out, if you still can'. Reading 'Hospital Doctor' which is a magazine for (surprise surprise) hospital doctors, (e.g. the articles I pointed to) provide a different view to the anodyne pap put out but the BMA to meet political objectives. It is of course up to you who to believe. Don't listen to me. Do your own research.

Perhaps the currently unemployed junior doctors should be told that they shouldn't worry so much about the pay and kudos associated with unemployment?

I believe that those GEP students without a bioscience (and research) background are quite likely to find the competition for training posts after F2 rather challenging, and many may find themselves stuck in permanent SHO equivalent positions.

[yazoo]

While I was at medical school at least 2 consultants advised me to 'get out, if you still can'.

Perhaps the currently unemployed junior doctors should be told that they shouldn't worry so much about the pay and kudos associated with unemployment?

I believe that those GEP stud ents without a bioscience (and research) background are quite likely to find the competition for training posts after F2 rather challenging, and many may find themselves stuck in permanent SHO equivalent positions.

Only 2 consultants! People joke about that all the time. Some even sound like they mean it. Most of the drs I've met might moan a bit about their jobs (contracts, money, conditions), but they wouldn't change their decision to study medicine for anything. The ones who really want to leave are long gone...

If I were unemployed 2 years after graduation, my first response would to be to change my application style, CV etc and get some interview advice. I wouldn't necessarily be blaming the government 100%!!!

I totally disagree about GEP students without a bioscience (and research) background finding the competition for training posts after F2 rather challenging. The short-listing criteria for training may well be based on entrance exams - that seems to be the plan for surgery at the moment with other colleges still to decide. And if not, they have a medical degree and are competing with mostly with people without other qualifications - not other GEP students - so why would it be challenging? Can't see any logic there...

[Joella]

I believe that those GEP students without a bioscience (and research) background are quite likely to find the competition for training posts after F2 rather challenging, and many may find themselves stuck in permanent SHO equivalent positions.

It seems that GEP students are performing better in their final exams - as they are also likely to be mature with professional experience, they might be more employable - I guess nobody really knows yet. If they are discriminated against on age, there could be a lot of age discrimination cases against the NHS.

Most of the doctors I've spoken to have been impressed that I've been accepted onto a GEP course as they are aware of the competition - even doctors I've spoken to in Wales have heard good things about the Georges GEP. None of them have told me to get out whilst I still can

[nas007bond]

yazoo wait there buddy,

I totally agree with deadlus:

I have commented on this issue before. Graduates/Matures (arts background, those with pathetic 2:2s) may become doctors, but when it comes to fighting for posts, it will be very difficult in interviews: You will be looked upon negetively:

I have said before I will say it again. Age will be a serious issue. (I have talked to consultants during shadowing, these guys are involved in recruiting for SpR posts (old system) so I tend to believe what they say .

You will compete with A* AAA superb calibre students who are simply brilliant (lets face it). You think they are gonna go for a mature/grad with a 2:1/2:2 arts background (prior to their medicine degree)? bullshit.

There will be jobs, Im not denying that, people will be employed no doubt. But those of you that think you will hit SpR kinda grade are living in a different world, do you actually have ANY IDEA what it takes to progress after SHO grade? People work abroad, work with the renowned BEST researchers overseas to get their MDs/PhD only to find out that someone else has got the SpR job (to become a consultant).

I agree with deadl.. that grads from nonscience background will find it a tough task to progress, some will for sure. But it aint gonna be easy. We will find that these people will be stuck at SHO grade, thos progressing will be Alevelers. If you dont believe me, ask around, talk to doctors.

BUT then again for some matures graduates this is still a bright prospect. I mean afterall they change careers for a stable profession that gurantees employment for life!

Face the reality!

[Kev]

I had worked in healthcare for many years before going to medical school and virtually all the doctors I spoke to about making such a move thought it was an excellent idea and gave me nothing but encouragement. The only "are you F*****G mad?!" comment I got was from an SHO who evidently hated her job and seemed to be in a permanently stressed state! And she was on-call at the time as well!

I think most applicants are aware that the financial benefits, job security, pensions rights etc. are not as good as they used to be and certainly do not compare favourably to those offered by other professions, industrial companies, financial institutions etc. However, that is not why they are enterering medicine is it? If it is they are deluded.

As for jobs. There is always a degree of competition for the most highly sought after posts but I do not think that medical graduates with a decent track record, determination and resourcefulness will end up in a post they do not want, let alone on the dole. And since up to a third of medical graduates leave medicine, will that not in itself relieve some of the pressure? As for GEP graduates without a biomedical background being less likely to secure posts beyond SHO level, well thats pure scaremongering as none have reached beyond first year SHO level as yet, so there is no evidence to support this. If they can complete the degree and F1 year then their competence to do the job is proven. A strong biomedical background (by this I assume you mean postgraduate research) in addition to a medical degree is NOT required to succeeed in medicine. The majority of medical grads do not even have a BSc and from what I have seen, they have fared well in their careers!