What are your opinions on PBL at manc?

[mitra07]

I heard a couple of things to start it off (feel free to add another perspective or dispell any myths you come across)
1) The PBL course structure at manc. breeds better GPs with good ppl skills rather than better speacilists and surgeons
2) PBL can be very vague and requires extra effort
3) When compared with other medical students (St. Andrews and Eburgh students etc. ) they are perceived as lacking knowledge by visiting proffessors
4) The full PBL system is being stuck to at manc. in spite of its shortcomings only because the person who started the system was the pioneer in the UK and he does not want to give up on a system he started
5) Group discussion can get rather difficult. With certain members in the group being exceptionally hard to handle especially individuals with more experience "controlling" the sessions.
6) The staff is not fully equipped to deal with the PBL system as fully as their Canadian counterparts hence the consistently lower staff score as compared to other schools in the top 10
7) However, manc. is still on top which might be becasue the students are better equipped with practical skills for practicing medicine and identifying illness and the subsequent dealing (hence they make really good GPs, the first line of defense)
8) The PBL system is harder since theres so little "spoon-feeding" (pro. or con. depending on how you look at it)

SO thats the summary of what i ve gotton to know from the opinions of current manc. medics such as my sister and some family friends and also from objective doctors and part time proffs. in the UK who have had significant experience with medical students as well as friends who live in the Uk and have done extensive research for their application to med. I just need a more varied opinion so that i can make a proper decision about med. school.

[j00ni]

Originally Posted by mitra07

1) The PBL course structure at manc. breeds better GPs with good ppl skills rather than better speacilists and surgeons

According to the research, and you can take that with a pinch of salt if you want, PBL breeds better doctors across the board, not just GPs

Originally Posted by mitra07

2) PBL can be very vague and requires extra effort

It can, but it depends largely on the group. If the group are all actively participating and there is a good discussion it can be a very worthwhile process.

Originally Posted by mitra07

3) When compared with other medical students (St. Andrews and Eburgh students etc. ) they are perceived as lacking knowledge by visiting proffessors

There is this impression, but it is really just a misconception. There is no real distinction that can be made as far as assessed performance goes

Originally Posted by mitra07

4) The full PBL system is being stuck to at manc. in spite of its shortcomings only because the person who started the system was the pioneer in the UK and he does not want to give up on a system he started

No. It is being stuck with because the GMC have recommended it as the method that should be used

Originally Posted by mitra07

5) Group discussion can get rather difficult. With certain members in the group being exceptionally hard to handle especially individuals with more experience "controlling" the sessions.

Yes. But that's life. If you can't handle this perhaps medicine isn't for you

Originally Posted by mitra07

6) The staff is not fully equipped to deal with the PBL system as fully as their Canadian counterparts hence the consistently lower staff score as compared to other schools in the top 10
7) However, manc. is still on top which might be becasue the students are better equipped with practical skills for practicing medicine and identifying illness and the subsequent dealing (hence they make really good GPs, the first line of defense)

For both these points it requires you to put a lot of stock in league tables, which tbh don't really make a great deal in real terms. Also, you make it seem like manchester is the only PBL course. The majority of UK med schools use PBL to a certain extent, and many have very similar PBL-only courses like manc

Originally Posted by mitra07

8) The PBL system is harder since theres so little "spoon-feeding" (pro. or con. depending on how you look at it)

It's difficult to judge really, as it requires you to postulate how difficult a lecture-based course is.

If you see the sticky, there are a number of links to threads dealing with PBL. Also, searching will bring up numerous debates on the pros and cons.

[rachele]

agreed with j00ni..it makes better doctors in my opinion..though be warned it requires far more hours than a lecture based course ..again my opinion.. though is more rewarding because it develops other skills such as teamwork, self reliance and independence so is arguably more rewarding?

[mitra07]

i actually rather like the PBL system. personally, because i ve been in debate for a really long time working with my team and leading them has shown me that i work really well in groups and they help me learn a lot better and formulate the arguments and think better. It s just that when i speak with people about pbl they have been giving me a negative view of the pbl system in practice, they are compelled to think that it only works well on paper. But my experiences with a year of project work (a group based subject where the group works towards creating a feasible real world project) and five years in debate i enjoy group work and nine out of ten times groups start out chilly but once you get on with the work it becomes a fabulous way to work as long as there are some basic guidelines to follow and most ppl have something to contribute. It s good to hear that a lot of what i ve heard isnt entirely true. Thanks for taking the time to clear up everything! makes this whole overseas application a lot easier.

[j00ni]

I think pbl can work well, and I was convinced it would be for me before applying (hence why manc and liverpool were my top choices). On the whole I do enjoy it and think I benefit much more from the group debates.

I also think that once you get to clinicals, pbl comes into its own, as you bring your own cases and experiences to the session - so it is far more beneficial imo.

Overall, if I were to apply for med school again pbl courses would still be my ideal choice.

[Bambi]

I think PBL is a much harder way of learning medicine, more time-wise though than anything else, on traditional courses you just have to learn what you are given whereas we have to find all the info and then learn it.

As for making better GPs rather than specialists, what a load of rubbish, it just makes you a better doctor in general because right away you are meant to try and diagnose conditions from a few symptoms rather than just learning about the systems etc. Also I heard that an unusually high number of Manc grads go into surgery, dont know how true that is though. Whether or not you go into surgery isn't determined by your med school really anyway but more by your personality. Saying that though as different med schools go for different things it may be that particular med schools admit more people that are likely to be surgeons because they all have some common trait that the med school looks for.

[j00ni]

Maybe having cadaveric dissection has some bearing, as it gives you an early opportunity to get stuck in with a scalpel as it were

[durian]

Ask any med grads who went thru lecture based course & they'll tell you that what they learnt for exams were promptly largely forgotten soon after that--but not clinical cases they self-studied(much like pbl) during the course.Its actually harder to self-study, but you end up digesting the topic better.

[mitra07]

dissection is one of the reasons i prefer leicester and manchester. Manc is fully pbl and has fc dissections and leicester offers half group work and half lecture (which im more comfortable with since i ve been in this system in junior college) and has fc dissections starting from second semester of the first year which is very appealing. I think now i just need to figure out how much pbl i might be able to handle.

[mitra07]

Originally Posted by durian

Ask any med grads who went thru lecture based course & they'll tell you that what they learnt for exams were promptly largely forgotten soon after that--but not clinical cases they self-studied(much like pbl) during the course.Its actually harder to self-study, but you end up digesting the topic better.

I read a survey done a while back about pbl and it found that when students using the pbl system were assesed against students on a lecture-based (traditional) system immediately after they were given information to assimilate the students on PBL performed just below those on the lecture-based system (not very significant) however when tested again 18 months down the road the PBL students outperformed their counterparts by a fair margin. So there is a deal of truth to the info. retention. it feels like common sense though.

And yes....the bit about the GPs sounds like (for lack of a better word) rubbish