Imperial or UCL?

[Dr Noodle]

Ha. Mr chemical above sounds like a naive teenager living a comfortable life who hasn't learned the ways of the world yet.

Those who arent academically good enough to enter the elite can only enter the lower level ones, cuz most of the brightest students go to elite unis.

Here you are assuming that all those who are academically talented want to go to these unis. Personally I wouldn't touch Oxford or Cambridge with a forty foot barge pole. You are also assuming that those who are academically talented always get high grades. Again you are wrong. These are teenagers we are talking about here. Anything could happen to swing them off the path for a while- falling in love, spending too much time involved in extra curricular activities at school, spending more time on their social life, having to work to help the parents out etc. These aren't things the universities are going to take into consideration as extenuating circumstances. But they're normal things that happen to people with all levels of intelligence.

And like Sim says above, sure intelligence is important, but what good is a really smart doctor who doesn't have the social skills to persuade his stubborn 60 year old patient to take his tablets or to make his forty year old mum of three patient start looking seriously at the different treatment options for her brain tumour.

You wanna be careful too. What you said above may come back to bite you on the ass when a Peninsula graduate gets that highly sought after academic position and you don't.

You might also wanna work on your diplomacy skills. They're like those of a two year old.

[Oxaloacetate1]

Originally Posted by Dr Noodle

Ha. Mr chemical above sounds like a naive teenager living a comfortable life who hasn't learned the ways of the world yet.

Insults don't help change whats real.

Originally Posted by Dr Noodle

Here you are assuming that all those who are academically talented want to go to these unis.

No, you're the one assuming things here. Talented people exist at other places as well, but top notch places like Oxford, Imperial, Cambridge, UCL, etc dont have any places for the lowly performing ones because they're much higher level, whilst other places can be entered also by the not-so-able. These places also have the BMAT, which other places dont ask for.

Originally Posted by Dr Noodle

Personally I wouldn't touch Oxford or Cambridge with a forty foot barge pole.

What a lame way to downgrade some of the top institutions. I'd say you cant touch such places cuz you are just not good enough. You cant get what you cant get.

Originally Posted by Dr Noodle

You are also assuming that those who are academically talented always get high grades. Again you are wrong. These are teenagers we are talking about here. Anything could happen to swing them off the path for a while- falling in love, spending too much time involved in extra curricular activities at school, spending more time on their social life, having to work to help the parents out etc. These aren't things the universities are going to take into consideration as extenuating circumstances. But they're normal things that happen to people with all levels of intelligence.

Right...how does that help you strengthen your argument? Sure, people do get sidetracked at times, but the ones who have set defiinitive goals for their future who work hard and are highly intelligent normally dont get so sidetracked out of control to mess up their future. Only stupid people are wuss enough to become like that.

Originally Posted by Dr Noodle

And like Sim says above, sure intelligence is important, but what good is a really smart doctor who doesn't have the social skills to persuade his stubborn 60 year old patient to take his tablets or to make his forty year old mum of three patient start looking seriously at the different treatment options for her brain tumour.

Where in my post did I say that social skills are not important? But high levels of social skills wont help you if you dont work hard to achieve a good academic background.

Originally Posted by Dr Noodle

You wanna be careful too. What you said above may come back to bite you on the ass when a Peninsula graduate gets that highly sought after academic position and you don't.

I'd say you be careful. Dont overestimate your ability so as to think you have chances to beat everyone. I did say that other unis can produce good doctors, but it is highly unlikely that people from lower tier unis will ever on the whole perform better than people from Oxford, UCL, Cambridge and the like.

Originally Posted by Dr Noodle

You might also wanna work on your diplomacy skills. They're like those of a two year old.

You're the one to grow up to accept reality and not distort it by saying that unis like Peninsula are as good as places like Oxford.

[Singh.Simran]

Originally Posted by Baki

Imperials medical school is very new. UCL however is much older. It's biomedical research was ranked 2nd in the country (ahead of Oxbridge). That and it has 3 fantastic hospitals right next to the University and it has the biggest range of intercalated BSc.

Regarding what I know about Imperial, I've only seen it from the outside and it is a very nice campus. However South Kensington is a bit pricey. But Imperial is affiliated with some very good hospitals.

Actually i think Oxbridge's intercalation is wider :P

But pricey, you can say that again, i think the halls prices this year ranged from about 3800-6 grand a year :|

[Singh.Simran]

Originally Posted by Oxaloacetate1

These places also have the BMAT, which other places dont ask for.

The uni entrance tests mean nothing, nothing more than a-levels anyway. They don't make good doctors.

Where in my post did I say that social skills are not important? But high levels of social skills wont help you if you dont work hard to achieve a good academic background.

Gonna answer MY post that actually made the full argument, that Nadia only brought in partially? That your criteria for good doctoring were high intelligence and entrance grades and not the other factors? That you haven't proved at all that Oxbridge etc can give high interpersonal/practical skills?

To be honest, Oxbridge haven't got teaching hospitals, and all the research in the world cannot make up for that in actual real-life practical medicine.

Someone so intelligent should be able to look at the evidence for themselves - that being a doctor is not just about the skill with a pen and book

[Pammy]

People!

This is a silly argument, and also totally biased (one person from Peninsula, one from Oxford!).

(1) Firstly, all accredited medical courses are of a standard that's high enough to produce competent doctors. Beyond that, unis emphasise different skills - so what? It would be terrible if all doctors came from one mega-medschool - don't you think having different med schools with different characteristics adds diversity, different outlooks and skills to the team in the hospital, once everyone is thrown together there after med school?

(2) Your training does not end with med school. You probably learn as much or more in your first few years as a junior doctor as you did at uni. I can only speak from a research experience (where similarly, you almost feel you're starting all over again at the start of your PhD, never mind the many years hard work you've just put in as an undergrad!). I have seen research students who graduated from top unis be outperformed by ones from unis further down in the rankings on many occasions. I am sure this will be similar for doctors. Especially as a doctor, med school is only your first step on the learning curve. It's easy to become complacent "I'm from a better uni so I must be better" - and quickly fall behind everyone else.

(3) You are not synonymous with your med school. I am sure that there are people at Oxford who make poor use of the course, and end up knowing less science that someone from another uni. You forget that it is to a large part what you make of it. Noone stops the person at Peninsula from spending 2 hours every day reading scientific journals, or the person at Oxford from volunteering in different places to strengthen their personal skills. During the clinical part at either uni, you gain most of your knowledge from what you make of your time on the wards.

(4) Neither of you has actually experience the other's uni - it's all prejudices. They are easy to form. I was recently tutoring someone from a uni I hadn't even heard the name of, and I have to admit I was a bit dismissive - until I discovered to my surprise that the teaching was actually excellent, the context were all correct and up to date with latest knowledge, and the standard was good!

[ryangeleit]

'Those who arent academically good enough to enter the elite can only enter the lower level ones, cuz most of the brightest students go to elite unis.'

No medical schoool in the UK asks for less than AAB at a-level with many asking for AAA (Oxbridge, Imperial, barts...). You need a 2.1 at degree to get into the GEP courses (and a 1st at Birmingham). Every course interviews (with the exception of soton) at least once, require a hefty amount of extra-curricular input and a passion for their chosen career. Therefore would it not be fair to argue that on this basis the standard of accepted applicants is going to be very high wherever you go?

[Dr Noodle]

Originally Posted by Oxaloacetate1

What a lame way to downgrade some of the top institutions. I'd say you cant touch such places cuz you are just not good enough. You cant get what you cant get.

I never said anything against the institutions themselves. I have nothing against them or people who want to study there. They just aren't the kind of places that I would want to study in and they don't offer the type of teaching I'm looking for. I may not be the most intelligent individual but considering my grades and the circumstances I got them in last year, I'm quite confident in my academic abilities. You can say I'm not good enough all you like but you won't change my mind there.

Right...how does that help you strengthen your argument? Sure, people do get sidetracked at times, but the ones who have set defiinitive goals for their future who work hard and are highly intelligent normally dont get so sidetracked out of control to mess up their future. Only stupid people are wuss enough to become like that.

Seriously man you're like the polar opposite of Nelson Mandela and Kofi Annan. My dad failed his leaving cert and was told by mensa he's one of the most intelligent people in Britain so that sorta disproves your theory there. Intelligent people often don't set definite goals for their future and I don't see how they are 'wusses' for that.

I'd say you be careful. Dont overestimate your ability so as to think you have chances to beat everyone. I did say that other unis can produce good doctors, but it is highly unlikely that people from lower tier unis will ever on the whole perform better than people from Oxford, UCL, Cambridge and the like.

Never said that I'd be the one to get that job ahead of you

You're the one to grow up to accept reality and not distort it by saying that unis like Peninsula are as good as places like Oxford.

Academically I have no doubt that the likes of Oxbridge are of a higher standard but why do you feel it's necessary to come on to a public forum where there are students at and applying to these colleges and call places like PMS and Leicester 'low tier'? Sometimes it's better to keep opinions such as these to yourself.

[LightElf7]

I agree with Pammy. This argument is not getting anyone anywhere.
True, people at places like Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial and UCL are very smart and talented, but that doesnt immediately make others at other unis incapable and not-so-intelligent. You can grow big and successful also from other unis - success largely depends on what you make of your future yourself rather than where you study. I certainly would not feel "below" people from places which Mr. Oxaloacetate calls "top tier" even if I'd decide to study at places which no one knows, cuz I still will put all the work and effort in to succeed, wherever I am.

[alex MD]

Originally Posted by Oxaloacetate1

lower-tier unis like Peninsula, Leicester etc is just wrong. Lower tier unis are generally easier to enter cuz you get lower offers.

What's with all the Leicester bashing going on this year? And Leicester want AAB with an A in chem, which if you are as short sighted as you seem and feel you must rely on entry grades to determine just how good your uni is, is more difficult to achieve than other uni's who want AAB; depending on your chemistry ability.

[Oxaloacetate1]

Originally Posted by alex MD

What's with all the Leicester bashing going on this year? And Leicester want AAB with an A in chem, which if you are as short sighted as you seem and feel you must rely on entry grades to determine just how good your uni is, is more difficult to achieve than other uni's who want AAB; depending on your chemistry ability.

Insults doesnt help you make your uni any better. I think everyone on this thread missed my point: that high level elite unis always ask for top scores on A Levels like AAA (not AAB or the like), and to discriminate even more between smart candidates, also use interviews and entrance exams. And speaking overall, places like Oxbridge, Imperial and UCL are the hardest to enter no matter how you put it. Only the smartest and most talented people enter there. And no, places like Oxford and UCL are good not because they have higher entry grades, but because they just are world-class institutions leading in their respective fields. You're the one being short-sighted as to think that places like Leicester equals the elite.

And Pammy, no uni can teach Medicine if they dont meet the requirements of GMC, but you'll fall behind others if your uni only meets the minimum requirements. Top unis go beyond that to make the best doctors. And there are people who make poor use of the course in Oxford? Such people wouldnt even have managed to enter it in the first place if they arent determined enough to do their work! If you're talking about lower places then sure there might be people who dont make all out of their course, but most people from high level places do not make such mistakes, whereas some others from lower unis well might.

And LightElf, basing success solely on your personal skills is just nonsense. If you could only enter a low-tier uni, then what you can make out of your course is also limited, not just because of the low quality of the uni, but cuz you lacked skill. Being a med student at a place like Imperial, I expected someone like you to know the reality, but I guess you're blind to it.