Given Baby P/Shipman whats more important, evidence based medicine or admission ?

**ipsiLoquitor** · 11-12-2008, 06:25 PM

Thank you to everyone who contributed on this forum, read the threads and joined in the e-mail circulation.

As requested I am posting a link as a way in which those who wish to do so can contribute:

Tribute to Baby P , North London | Lasting Tribute

**Granny Midges** · 11-12-2008, 07:02 PM

Ipsi
Thank you for posting that,after reading some of the tributes there it has restored my faith in human kind somewhat. The littel boy is now loved more than he'll ever know.

**ipsiLoquitor** · 13-12-2008, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by Eponine_hugo

Please guys, if you haven't watched Donnie Darko do go and watch it and think of the fear comments this guy comes out with. Ipsi you are so funny!

I would like to recommend you all watch this too.

What Eponine Hugo doesn't know yet is that, like him, the Dr in this film practices unsafe medicine. At one point, for example, he simultaeously increases the patient's medication whilst also beginning hypnotherapy.

Anyone who knows the contraindications for hypnotherapy would not do this for a patient of Darko's label. Of course, I do accept that a highly skilful professional who knows the reason for the contraindication could potentially intervene successfully. I wonder, Eponine, do you know what the contraindication is to the treatment prescribed by this negligent doctor ? I guess its important to examine the patient (whoops I mean film) properly without jumping to conclusions as to its usefulness in an evidence based forum.

**ipsiLoquitor** · 18-12-2008, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by jonbonbon

Half of that post was an example of ur hypocracy.

Im pretty sure every doctor will make a mistake at some point... Maybe u need to think about why the person made the mistake... maybe the parents were inhospitable...Not quite sure what "famous" film this is either, we're medics not psychologists, quote scrubs we understand it. ill start sure,
"Elliot: My life is a mess!
J.D.: At least you're pretty.
Elliot: Yeah, well, pretty don't pay the rent!
Carla: It does for my sister.
Elliot: Oh, my God, your sister's a prostitute?
Carla: She's a model. Come on, Elliot, we talked about thinking before we speak."

The famous film is 'A Time To Kill'

In it a defenceless child is killed. The line I was quoting is the last line in this extract, which illustrates prejudice in action, the way people are capable of thinking and justifying anything according to the perceived status of the victim:

Jake Tyler Brigance: [in his summation, talking about Tonya Hailey] I want to tell you a story. I'm going to ask you all to close your eyes while I tell you the story. I want you to listen to me. I want you to listen to yourselves. Go ahead. Close your eyes, please. This is a story about a little girl walking home from the grocery store one sunny afternoon. I want you to picture this little girl. Suddenly a truck races up. Two men jump out and grab her. They drag her into a nearby field and they tie her up and they rip her clothes from her body. Now they climb on. First one, then the other, raping her, shattering everything innocent and pure with a vicious thrust in a fog of drunken breath and sweat. And when they're done, after they've killed her tiny womb, murdered any chance for her to have children, to have life beyond her own, they decide to use her for target practice. They start throwing full beer cans at her. They throw them so hard that it tears the flesh all the way to her bones. Then they urinate on her. Now comes the hanging. They have a rope. They tie a noose. Imagine the noose going tight around her neck and with a sudden blinding jerk she's pulled into the air and her feet and legs go kicking. They don't find the ground. The hanging branch isn't strong enough. It snaps and she falls back to the earth. So they pick her up, throw her in the back of the truck and drive out to Foggy Creek Bridge. Pitch her over the edge. And she drops some thirty feet down to the creek bottom below. Can you see her? Her raped, beaten, broken body soaked in their urine, soaked in their semen, soaked in her blood, left to die. Can you see her? I want you to picture that little girl. Now imagine she's white.
All the actual evidence in this case pointed to a different verdict than the jury reached. Why ? Their prejudices disqualified them from making the judgements which legally they were entitled to do.

**Fizzwizz** · 04-01-2009, 06:39 PM

It still amazes me how the Shipman thing is continually debated, and how everyone constantly tries to assign blame.

This my friends is the darker side of humanity, it will always be there, and ultimately we can do nothing to prevent it. The only person to blame was Shipman. The fact that he was a Doctor is secondary. Murderers come from all professions, you can't screen for them. I for one am fed up of the GMC and its supporters assuming I'm going to kill 100 patients as soon as their backs are turned.

My message is stop trying to find people to blame. The world is not a fuzzy ball of chocolate cream, it's a real shithole at times and bad things will always happen .. such is the human nature. I think the actions we have taken post Shipman have caused more damage than Shipman himself!

Peace ... Fizz

**ipsiLoquitor** · 04-01-2009, 08:34 PM

It worries me that there is no distinction made between blame and responsibility.

It further worries me that with less than 180 days to graduation bloggers are still able to make blanket generalisations based on ignorance.

I hope my notes would get better attention in your hands than this post which has clearly not been read.

It is your responsibility to read the notes.

To sum up this thread with the theme of 'blame' is akin to summing up
a complicated neurological case with the statement 'well its not medical'.

As far as this thread is concerned I suggest that you have 2nd degree heart block and would suggest you re-read and post again before it becomes a third degree problem for someone - most likely a patient.

**Fizzwizz** · 04-01-2009, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by ipsiLoquitor

It further worries me that with less than 180 days to graduation bloggers are still able to make blanket generalisations based on ignorance.

I hope my notes would get better attention in your hands than this post which has clearly not been read.

It is your responsibility to read the notes.

To sum up this thread with the theme of 'blame' is akin to summing up
a complicated neurological case with the statement 'well its not medical'.

As far as this thread is concerned I suggest that you have 2nd degree heart block and would suggest you re-read and post again before it becomes a third degree problem for someone - most likely a patient.

ipsiLoquitor, please read the forum rules regarding personal attacks on forum members. It's sad enough that a forum for healthcare professionals is still plagued by trolls, let alone ones who actually attack its administrators.

**gimperial99** · 01-02-2009, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by ipsiLoquitor

It worries me that there is no distinction made between blame and responsibility.

It further worries me that with less than 180 days to graduation bloggers are still able to make blanket generalisations based on ignorance.

I hope my notes would get better attention in your hands than this post which has clearly not been read.

It is your responsibility to read the notes.

To sum up this thread with the theme of 'blame' is akin to summing up
a complicated neurological case with the statement 'well its not medical'.

As far as this thread is concerned I suggest that you have 2nd degree heart block and would suggest you re-read and post again before it becomes a third degree problem for someone - most likely a patient.

Do you honestly believe that these personality tests would have stopped Shipman?

**Eponine_hugo** · 02-02-2009, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by ipsiLoquitor

I would like to recommend you all watch this too.

What Eponine Hugo doesn't know yet is that, like him, the Dr in this film practices unsafe medicine. At one point, for example, he simultaeously increases the patient's medication whilst also beginning hypnotherapy.

Anyone who knows the contraindications for hypnotherapy would not do this for a patient of Darko's label. Of course, I do accept that a highly skilful professional who knows the reason for the contraindication could potentially intervene successfully. I wonder, Eponine, do you know what the contraindication is to the treatment prescribed by this negligent doctor ? I guess its important to examine the patient (whoops I mean film) properly without jumping to conclusions as to its usefulness in an evidence based forum.

What on earth are you on about? My ref to the film was nothing to do with the FICTITIOUS doctor on it - it was to do with all the 'fear and love' crap that is spouted on the film and comparing it to your 'fear' comments.... what does the doctor and contraindications have to do with that? Of course I don't know the contraindications for every drug yet - I'm a THIRD year - by year 5 perhaps I will be able to answer your question, but for now, please acknowledge the academic level of the person you're addressing!

And in the 'like him' are u refering to me as practicing unsafe medicine. Well ur wrong on 2 accounts - 1 I don't practice any form of medicine yet, safe or otherwise as I am not qualified!! 2 - I a FEMALE! For someone claiming to be so smart, the Eponine should have given it away - Les Mis....

**ipsiLoquitor** · 18-02-2009, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by Eponine_hugo

What on earth are you on about? My ref to the film was nothing to do with the FICTITIOUS doctor on it - it was to do with all the 'fear and love' crap that is spouted on the film and comparing it to your 'fear' comments.... what does the doctor and contraindications have to do with that? Of course I don't know the contraindications for every drug yet - I'm a THIRD year - by year 5 perhaps I will be able to answer your question, but for now, please acknowledge the academic level of the person you're addressing!

And in the 'like him' are u refering to me as practicing unsafe medicine. Well ur wrong on 2 accounts - 1 I don't practice any form of medicine yet, safe or otherwise as I am not qualified!! 2 - I a FEMALE! For someone claiming to be so smart, the Eponine should have given it away - Les Mis....

I guess that for you there is a big distinction between communication on medical forums and practising medicine, whereas for me there is a bigger distinction between practising safe medicine and being medically qualified. The fact that you are female would be a reasonable bet for anyone to make given what has been stated previously. However, your sex is less relevant to me than your reliance on protection of others when unable to offer logical arguments for yourself. Your failure to contradict the rebuke meted out to me demonstrates once again how women defend each other first and think about it later. By contrast, Shilpa Shetty was able to defend Jade long before her diagnosis of a cancer, the failure to find satisfactory treatments of which will attract no rebuke.

Doctors and would-be find ways to protect themselves first then patients. This syntax is clear.