Pathway to become a surgeon

[fitz]

Hi guys,

Im a 2nd year medical student. I just wanted to have an idea of how to become a surgeon. What's the career pathway? After graduating MBBS, we'll have to do 2yrs housemanship, and then what happens if I want to be a surgeon?

Thanx

[alex MD]

I'm not in med school yet so I can only really say what I've been told by doctors! It seems that after doing F1 and F2 you apply for a surgical post which I think includes ST1 and ST2! That post will be surgery with a 'theme' such as ortho!! Then I think for ST3 you have to apply to a subspeciality! But i could be completely wrong!!

Alex

[fitz]

so after F1 and F2, u apply for surgical training immediately? I've heard that you are to sit for an exam? MRCS ,is it?

[alex MD]

Yeh you probably do!! I don't about exams but I think thats the training pathway! After F1 and F2 you apply for 2 years in surgery (ST1 and ST2) which I think involves different specialities so you can improve your surgical skills etc then for ST3 you apply for a subspeciality e.g. neuro after your 2 years of ST1 and ST2 getting surgical experience! Tbh I'm probs not the best person to talk to, hopefully yeliab_crab might be around, he seems good on this stuff !

[James]

F2 in unlikely to exist (post Tooke) when you qualify. You will do an F1 year, then a 3 year 'core specialty' stem in Surgery, followed by five years as a specialist registrar, you are then likely to end up as a 'junior' or 'sub' consultant for a few years, do some sub-specialty training, then finally be a proper consultant.

Of note the transition from F1 to 'core specialty' training in Surgery is likely to be the bottleneck in training and competition for posts will be cut throat (think 10:1 or above). You will also need to pass the MRCS exams in the core training and KBA exams in registrar training.

[alex MD]

Wasn't MMC supposed to shorten training? So it may be that you do F1 then 3 years in surgery? Would this core speciality stem be in just one speciality?

[fitz]

wow~~~ I am very confused now.. so that means, I'd have to do F1 ,then 3yrs core? How do you get into that 3years core training? Do you have to go through applications and compete again with others?

[James]

Yes Fitz, F1 then three years core, 5 years as a reg and even then your not a proper consultant yet. It is going to be competitive entry, likely a national or regional system which is computer based (think MTAS or the F1 application system). As I said competition will be cut throat in specialties like surgery which are popular. You will really need to 'stand out' if you want to do surgery, think peer reviewed publications, published audits, honors or intercalated degrees etc..

Alex, MMC was supposed to shorten training - it has also been one of the biggest disasters to hit the NHS in over 60 years. Sir John Tooke has written a report outlining the future of post-grad education and how to fix the MMC disaster. His suggestion is almost certainly going to be the future for you guys when you qualify.

[fitz]

thanx James! Is it compeptitive if you want to work in the UK? What if I;m going to work overseas? would that case be different?