Physician assistants

[pioneer22]

Well I am on an operating department course at keele uni, and I want to get into medicine but this course was the only thing i could get onto. Now I was originally going to go for the surgical care practitioners course which is like the PA course but in theatre. Im still not sure what route to go down but ive wanted to be a doctor for so long, by the time I qualify ill need to practice for 2 years then do another 2 yrs SCP course I might aswell go to med school. I dont think there is anything wrong with PA's but if they are expanding current healthcare roles I.E Physios that want to do something different or nurses etc thats fine. I think joe public with a degree in film studies should not be allowed onto it.

It does seem like a way of having a cheap doctor and i dont agree with people saying that they are putting patients lives at risk. They will be trained and whats the difference between a F1 F2 doing a risky procedure they havent done before and a PA doing the same.

[Anjoo]

PA's probably prefer the lifestyle, it does not appeal to some people studying 4+ years at med school then a further 7 years to become a consultant and its understandable that many people will feel uneasy with this new profession, people always are, especially with strategy and policy constantly changing. Imagine studying over 4 years at med school then some more years and not have a job after all that sweat and financial burden, some people just like to take the easy route so they can live a comfortable life

[DamianUK]

Rich Trash...again another person who talks out of their arse.
How many lawyers go to uni to do law expecting not to get a job? How many dentists/ vets/ performing arts people really expect to not be able to work in their chosen field?

Some of the 4000 people without jobs are in fact some with very good CV's. This is what happens when you let people outside a profession decide on implementation of that field.
Next year it will be 9000 without ST jobs.

I have a Major problem with PAs'. They have no real career progression and as such will always be under the supervision of a senior Dr, rather than having people who will progress and be of more use as time goes on you will have people who will never be autonomous and as such will never trai replacements.
With the expansion of nursing roles hy do we even need the PA role? it seems like another vote "winner" and to have more people seen by ever less qualified people for ever reduced cost (which is never a saving as the set up costs and supervision costs negate any reduction in wages).

[Anjoo]

Damian, have you ever actually worked with a PA? your opinion seems to be very strong and I suggest you speak to a PA and ask them how they feel about their job, there are PA's that have come from United Stes currently working within the Midlands who are doing a terrific job, and you mentioned some points which i'll address:

1) "they have no real acreer progression" PA's have the opportunity to continue studying and choose the field they wish to work in, some PA's may wish to go onto Medical Degree
2) "Will always be under the supervision of a doctor" PA's actually prefer this because they can learn from the doctor at the same time an ease the doctors workload and give doctors the opporunity to deal with the more complex cases
3) "with the expansion of nursing roles why do we need a PA role?" - there is a difference in nurse practitioner training compared to PA training, PA's follow the medical model [http://www.medicine.bham.ac.uk/prosp...framework.pdf] and a problem based learning approach, whereas, nurses follow the nursing curriculum, PA's have the opportunity to specialise in a broad range of medical/surgical care, which allows them to practise in more than one speciality. Thats why this Qualification is also open to Nurses to allow them to have a fair chance and nurses are most likely to get accepted onto these type of courses as well as life science graduates, I agree that this could have been incorporated in the nursing role but then that would mean that nurses would have to do everything, a nursing and junior doctor role in one, and still less pay/salary, how do you think they would feel about that? ...

And NO I'm not talking about of my arse, I have opinions too just like you do so respect them please

Thanks

[Rich' Trash]

Originally Posted by DamianUK

Rich Trash...again another person who talks out of their arse.
How many lawyers go to uni to do law expecting not to get a job? How many dentists/ vets/ performing arts people really expect to not be able to work in their chosen field?

They expect that its not guaranteed to get a job as a lawyer as soon as they qualify, just because they've past their degree. The way I understand it is that if you don't get in one year.. then you just apply the next and do something else for a year? If I'm right.. its really not career shattering.

I believe you when you say that its people with good CVs not getting the jobs, but thats a problem with the process of choosing graduates for the jobs - not the fact of how many there are.

[Anjoo]

Sorry Damian

I thought your previous message was asserted to me, I did not realise you were responding to Rich'Trash's post. My apologies.


Anjoo..

[Dr Noodle]

some PA's may wish to go onto Medical Degree

That's not career progression, that's moving into a different career.

How would a PA, with a limited role, learn from someone who has to supervise them throughout their career only to make sure they don't mess up?

With regards the third point nurses have the opportunity to specialise as well. It wouldn't be a case of nurses doing everything because the specially trained nurses wouldn't be doing the same job as the staff nurses. Junior doctors get less wages than specially trained nurses. BTW the link you posted is broken.

Also, when you consider the job situation, is it wise to create a new role that will take away even more jobs from the doctors?

[Anjoo]

dr noodle

so i'm assuming you will not be supervised by a senior doctor?

The more experienced PA's will require less supervision, especially when working in A & E, doctors just don't have the time to constantly supervise, PA's will be consulting the supervising doctor just how the nurse consults the doctor, so whats the difference? Of coyrse PA's will learn, I spent some time with a consultant on ward rounds and clinics and I learnt quite alot, yes it would be daunting for PA that he/she will be supervised and not to mess up but as they get more experienced in their roles, the supervision will most likely be less.

Here is the link of the web page where i obtained the pa curriculum from:

http://www.medicine.bham.ac.uk/prosp...cianassistant/

You have asked me a question which I don't have the answer for, I don't believe the PA role is replacing doctor roles because the amount of knowledge and experience doctos have is extremeley valuable, from my understanding it is addressing the gap in patient care since the EU directive on GP hours. But I don't work for the government, yes I have studied strategy and policy but I do not know whether it is wise, I do know that it is working in the US and there are still lots of people opting for medical school.

We should give PA's a break, this is a government initiative and PA's are just there to do their job like any other health professional.

[Dr Noodle]

Haha god Anjoo I hope I have supervision right up until I become a consultant (hopefully).

Good point about the nurses having to report to a doctor but then why not offer extra training to the current nurses. I know several Irish nurses who trained in the UK but came straight back here because apparently there's also a job shortage for nurses.

I didn't word that right about PAs not learning from senior doctors. There'll only be so much they can do (or there should only be so much considering the course is only two years long). Therefore there will be a limit to what they can learn and apply from the senior doctors and is it not just another waste of time for the busy doctors to have to supervise?

You say that there are some already working in the Midlands but then why is it not a registered profession?:

This is not yet a registered profession and, whilst national moves towards protected registration are underway, the University cannot guarantee their successful completion.

The new EWTD affects all specialities no? I thought the UK government initially 'addressed' the problem by creating hundreds of new medical school places.

[Anjoo]

Because extra training for nurses will mean extra spending.. yeh I heard there were job shortages for nurses but it really depends on management, i was watching an interesting programme called can gerry fix nhs..

as i said in my previous post, the more experienced pa's won't require much supervision, in any profession supervision is required, whether ure a manager, director or a doctor, pa's can't be left in the job on their own because they will not have as much knowledge as doctors.

It will eventually become a registered profession, some international countries are also making moves to recruit pa's and it will then become a global initiative. I guess it is risky because you could work as pa and then all of a sudden strategy changes and its not a registered profession etc etc but theres associated risks with everything, it does not mean that you can't practise abraod because by then other countries will also want pa's. We can't think 5-years ahead of what might happen.. but we can try and make it a success, afterall its about patient care and working as a team with medical professionals.

yes the govrnement did address it but how many people can actually go to medical school considering the amount of debt they end up with? some people can't simply afford to go.

Don't quote me on the global issues with regards to pa's, at the moment pa's exists in US but I did read somewhere that other countries maybe adopt this if it works well. Don't know...