Problems with pbl?

[weasley_maestro]

I'm in the process of applying for '08 entry at the minute, and i'm looking to go for a PBL or integrated course. I might sound a bit undecided here, but im not, I've decided to apply for Manchester, Sheffield, HYMS and I'm deciding between Leeds/ Liverpool. This is because assuming I was to have the choice when it comes 2 offers, of an integratd/ PBL course, I dont know which would be best!!!

I love the idea that sheffield's ad Leeds have good patient contact, and I like the idea of an integrated course, cos theres a bit of everything. I do like the idea of PBL too, cos I findthat i remember things better if I've found it out myself rather than have it taught to myself, but I've got a few reservations about it!

I know its being going a while now (is 10 years right), but talking to some nurses atc. they hate it when the PBL students graduate, and i'm told that the anatomy of the pbl students isnt up 2 scratch?

If your student of one of these course types or your qualified and working, can you give me any idea of the pros and cons of pbl and possible problems if any that pbl can cause when qualified?

Thanks very much,
Emma

[Matt641]

I'm at an 'integrated' course at Imperial, though I have a friend at Sheffield. Our patient contact course in 1st year (which used to be 2nd year when I did it) is now pretty much identical to theirs - I think we stole it from them! Its good fun and a chance to practice comms skills - even if clinically you learn squat. We do a 4 week firm in 2nd year as well which is top.

My brother is now resp ST3 at the Royal Preston which takes students from Manchester, so the consultant fobs off students and new F1s to him.
He says that he and the nurses don't like PBL students in general because their clinical and anatomical knowledge tends to have gaps - he did make 2 exceptions though, the students that came from St Andrews to Manchester and the grads for whatever reason tended to have wider and deeper knowledge.
For example a final year coming to the end of a rotation when confronted with the labs from pleural aspirate looked at them and just drew a blank. (that may not mean much to you now, but trust me, by 5th year you should be able to make an interpretation)

Though, he then added that he reckons that if you're a good motivated student, it doesn't really matter whether you learnt via PBL or not, you'll make a good doctor. Which I guess nullifies whether you're at a PBL course or not - come F1 you should be good enough. It just determines how hard a trek your clinical years will be.

Being anecdotal i'm not sure if thats helpful at all! But good luck to wherever you apply.

[heed]

you are always going to find doctors who love PBL and those who hate it - thing is, there are graduates from both PBL and traditional courses who are excellent, and then those who are frankly horrendous. the root cause of this is how hard you work, not what uni you are at. the argument about clinical knowledge being less is pretty flawed as all students are taught the majority of their clinical medicine in the same way - in hospital by practising medics during their clinical years.

you are never going to get a balanced view on here unfortunately as people who do pbl will extole its virtues (like myself) and those on traditional courses will tell you their way is best. the only way (and by this time theres no going back) is to do it for yourself and see how you like it. no matter what course you get into, you will adapt and learn just as much.

a comparison between one traditional course and one PBL course is also not a comparison between the course TYPES, but the courses instead. the kind of problems matt mentioned are often the reverse: for example if you were to compare two JHOs from edinburgh (traditional) and Glasgow (PBL with five "clinical" years) then the clinical knowledge of the Glasgow grads is better, but the fundamental sciences of the edinburgh lot may be better. every uni is different which makes comparison alot harder.

and btw PBL has been the teaching method of choice in many canadian and american universities, most institutions in the Benelux and countless more throughout the world for at least 30 years - so it does work, and its not a new thing

[yazoo]

Originally Posted by Matt641

Though, he then added that he reckons that if you're a good motivated student, it doesn't really matter whether you learnt via PBL or not, you'll make a good doctor. Which I guess nullifies whether you're at a PBL course or not - come F1 you should be good enough. It just determines how hard a trek your clinical years will be.

I 100% agree with this. Good students make good Drs, by and large. Looking objectively, it's not suprising.

When it comes to the rest...

I personally think PBL can require hardcore effort to keep up. What happens if you're sick? If you've missed lectures, you can copy the notes. If PBL, not quite so easy... You're relying on a classmate to create your notes...!

If you find it a little hard to motivate yourself at times, I'd also not recommend PBL.

Whichever you choose, you will only do well if you do some work.

[Helen_485]

If you choose an integrated course, there will be a lot of self-study too! Just because almost the entire course isn't self-directed study doesn't mean you would get everything you need to know in the lectures.
I think the reason PBL works better with grad students is because it was originally intended for postgrad study, so in that situation is a good way of learning. I'm not saying undergrad students can't do well on it (and also not that all postgrads would do well with PBL), because a lot of them do very well but these tend to be the people who are suited to it. My opinion is that the average person as an undergrad would do best on an integrated course. If, as you say, you do really well when you do have to find things out for yourself then you may be one of the people who would do great on a PBL course.
My advice would be, if you really can't decide then you would probably do well with either, and start looking at the unis themselves and where they are when you're thinking about where you want to go - the course itself shouldn't be the only factor you consider when deciding where to study!

(BTW - heed -Edinburgh is integrated, not traditional :P)

[CKH]

If you ill in PBL tho, you still have access to the lecture notes and semianrs notes as well as notes form your PBL group....so I dont see that being a problem....as for not interpreting data....that more the student then the course...if he didnt put the time in going to the clincial skills seminars or ward rounds/XRAY tecting ect...then that more their problem, not yours

[Muffin2]

Originally Posted by weasley_maestro

I know its being going a while now (is 10 years right), but talking to some nurses atc. they hate it when the PBL students graduate, and i'm told that the anatomy of the pbl students isnt up 2 scratch?

Hi I'm at Leeds but originally from the Wirral so during my work experience i spoke to quite a few liverpool pbl graduates. They admitted themselves that when they went into their first post they found that whilst they had the diagnosis aspect of medicine down, they didn't have the solid anatomy and physiology background that the doctors who did an intergrated course had. So struggled in this aspect.
However they all said they thoughly enjoyed their time at liverpool uni and thought overall the pbl was good.
hope this helps

[yazoo]

Originally Posted by CKH

If you ill in PBL tho, you still have access to the lecture notes and semianrs notes as well as notes form your PBL group....so I dont see that being a problem....as for not interpreting data....that more the student then the course...if he didnt put the time in going to the clincial skills seminars or ward rounds/XRAY tecting ect...then that more their problem, not yours

1. Not all med schools run PBL the same. It's impossible to generalise.

2. Lack of knowledge is fundamentally the patients problem or your boss's problem, not your own. Unless you fail, of course.

If you're undecided, I'd pick traditional every time. IMO, anyway

[weasley_maestro]

Thanks very much for your help people! I am pretty much sure I'm applying for Manchester, Sheffield, Liverpool and HYMS

In other words the better 2 english pbl ones, and an integrated and hyms as a back up pbl! I'm hoping to have a choice between Manchester and Sheffield as their my top two, but will have to wait and see.

You've been a great help tho, and reassured me a bit onmy doubts! THankyoooo

Emma

[thom5455]

Its important to add that many 'PBL courses' actully include a comprehensive lecture component too; the PBL acts as a reinforcer. Topics are seldom covered just in PBL, an advantage I have found is that I get to go over the same concept several times in a week in many different ways.