Bullying in medical school

[catch22]

There have been numerous reports and surveys on medical student bullying and harassment while on placements. While talking to many of my fellow medics last night, it appeared to me that everyone had very strong opinons and bad experiences of the matter.

While on the wards, most of us have been belittled and made to feel inferior by doctors, nurses and consultants. A lot of the time when we're trying to learn, we're just cast aside and made to feel that we're in the way. I was once in a firm where the consultant even remarked that we're nothing but 'a piece of s*** with a badge'. To be honest, I found that amusing at the time, but in retrospect, I feel really let down and appalled.

As a mature student, it's taken me many attempts and a lot of perseverance to get into medical school, and it is my greatest achievement in my life so far. So to face this kind of attitude upsets me a lot. And sadly, it has put me off going on the wards on my own in the first place, which is a shame as I'm supposed to be in a very respectable and established teaching hospital.

I appreciate that some of these doctors are busy and have their patients as first priority, but at other times there is no excuse for this and I wonder if they can ever think back and remember when they were first on the wards and trying to find their feet? They were once medical students too!

Luckily not all consultants and doctors are like this. I have met doctors who have been very friendly and willing to teach and make you feel included in their team. But to be honest, these have been in the minority.

Anyway, I am curious to hear other medical students' views or experiences on this matter.

Regards.

sources:

Medical Students Complain of Bullying May 2005:
http://year2004-2005.student-direct....cle&sid= 2266

OVER A third of medical students have been bullied by senior doctors and nurses in hospitals, according to a survey published by the British Medical Association. Out of 1000 students questioned in the survey, around 35 percent claim to have been bullied. One in four students said they had been bullied by a doctor, while one in six had been bullied by a nurse.

BMA Medical Students Welfare Survey Report - March 2006:
http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content/WELFARE2006

Most respondents (83%) report that they have never been a victim of bullying and harassment whilst at medical school or on placement (table 10). However, almost a fifth report experiencing bullying or harassment infrequently (less than once a month) and 2% report being the victim of bullying or harassment at least monthly

[jonesy]

Hey catch 22, I'm sorry to hear of your bad experience, however, it really doesn't surprise me one bit. I think it is because we still have a generation of old-school doctors around, that insist on doling out a little of what they received when they were training... it's the attitude of "well if I was treated like this then so should they...it'll only make them better doctors"..Well in my opinion it doesn't make you a better doctor, just a nastier one!

I also think some of these docs like the stage of the ward round a little too much and see it as an opportunity to show off some theatrical talents...

A couple of weeks ago my clinical tutor singled me out and said i should be an example for a thyroid exam as it looked as if i had a thyroid problem!! I laughed and replied with "sorry mate your mistaken, my weight's down to too many chocolate biscuits", to which he replied, " are those biscuits going to your neck then??" LOL, i found it hilarious!

Anyway, i was a little hurt at first, but i didn't let it show, i just proved what a capable student i was by firing off answers to his ridiculously difficult questions! That showed him! I think he has a lot of respect for me now.

So, i think we need a very thick skin as Medical students..., sometimes it is just another test of your ability, others times it is a cruel person taking unnecessary advantage.... Either way, don't ever let yourself be bullied! stick up for yourself.

[catch22]

Hey catch 22, I'm sorry to hear of your bad experience, however, it really doesn't surprise me one bit. I think it is because we still have a generation of old-school doctors around, that insist on doling out a little of what they received when they were training... it's the attitude of "well if I was treated like this then so should they...it'll only make them better doctors"..Well in my opinion it doesn't make you a better doctor, just a nastier one!

I also think some of these docs like the stage of the ward round a little too much and see it as an opportunity to show off some theatrical talents...

A couple of weeks ago my clinical tutor singled me out and said i should be an example for a thyroid exam as it looked as if i had a thyroid problem!! I laughed and replied with "sorry mate your mistaken, my weight's down to too many chocolate biscuits", to which he replied, " are those biscuits going to your neck then??" LOL, i found it hilarious!

Anyway, i was a little hurt at first, but i didn't let it show, i just proved what a capable student i was by firing off answers to his ridiculously difficult questions! That showed him! I think he has a lot of respect for me now.

So, i think we need a very thick skin as Medical students..., sometimes it is just another test of your ability, others times it is a cruel person taking unnecessary advantage.... Either way, don't ever let yourself be bullied! stick up for yourself.

Hey Jonesy,

Cheers for that...you are right, we do need to have (or develop) very thick skins for this kind of thing. I only wish I was more quick witted to reply back like yourself. You handled that thyroid quip very well! Anyway it's true about some of these old-school docs...and the fact that they see the ward rounds some kind of theatrical stage.

What I don't understand are doctors who are really reluctant to teach or explain a few things to you when you approach them. Sometimes all I want is a little guidance on something I've seen on a CXR or ABG...and it's like getting blood out of a stone.

I also don't understand some of the nurses who are so rude for no reason. All they want you to do is go away! I appreciate that they must get inundated with medical students pouring in and out of the wards every day, but I've personally never done anything to upset any nurse...I'm always very courteous when I enter a ward, I always introduce myself....and I always put the patient's notes back in place etc etc yet a lot of the time, I get this big attitude problem. I don't know where it's come from, and I hate to say this but the nurses are a big reason for putting me off going on the wards, its ridiculous..!

Anyway cheers for your reply and I'll take your advice and try to stick up for myself in the future!

[1stNP]

Hey Jonesy,

Cheers for that...you are right, we do need to have (or develop) very thick skins for this kind of thing. I only wish I was more quick witted to reply back like yourself. You handled that thyroid quip very well! Anyway it's true about some of these old-school docs...and the fact that they see the ward rounds some kind of theatrical stage.

What I don't understand are doctors who are really reluctant to teach or explain a few things to you when you approach them. Sometimes all I want is a little guidance on something I've seen on a CXR or ABG...and it's like getting blood out of a stone.

I also don't understand some of the nurses who are so rude for no reason. All they want you to do is go away! I appreciate that they must get inundated with medical students pouring in and out of the wards every day, but I've personally never done anything to upset any nurse...I'm always very courteous when I enter a ward, I always introduce myself....and I always put the patient's notes back in place etc etc yet a lot of the time, I get this big attitude problem. I don't know where it's come from, and I hate to say this but the nurses are a big reason for putting me off going on the wards, its ridiculous..!

Anyway cheers for your reply and I'll take your advice and try to stick up for myself in the future!

I am so sorry to hear how you felt about nurses, the way they are behaving towards medical students. I tell you not all nurses are like that. At our place on first day when medical student joins our team I introduce them to all nurses and provide an opportunity for them to ask any question they may have and let them approach me whenever they feel it is necessary. As NP I work in all area with consultant team and so when medical students are allocated in our team I have them all the time within our team. I support them when they need support; I guide them when they need guidance, I help them when they need help. I form a rapport with medical students; sometime we do some audits/research/case study together. And when they move on elsewhere they always keep in touch with me and let me know how they are getting. I really enjoy working with medical students. They are clever cookies and I learnt a lot from them. So as regards to bullying, I say be very assertive and you will find nurses will back off. I say stand up for yourself.

[Varied A]

I too am sorry you've had a bad experience with nurses - it's not all that common, but there are the odd one or two around who have a real problem with anybody who's more intelligent than them, knows more than them, or thinks they're better than them (or is assumed to fit into one of those categories, as med students and degree-route nursing students such as myself often are). Sadly it sounds asthough you've got a concentration of them in one place

I've found the best way to deal with them is to just accept everything they tell you and make them believe you think it's gospel truth, agree with them even when they have something patently incorrect to say, and invite their opinions at every opportunity. That normally shuts them up and makes them feel nice and important, then they'll like you and you'll have an easier time of things. It shouldn't have to happen, but it works

Of course this is different to the issue of the nurse who really has just got a million and one things going on and having a med student asking them a question is the absolute last straw. If you get to know people you'll get to realise when they can and can't be disturbed - most nurses are happy to talk to students and answer questions, just not when they have a patient heading south, 2 people on hold on the telephone, relatives wanting info and paperwork stacking up left right and centre!

[Gizmo says -]

hehe.

i cant wait to start ma clinicalz as a mautre applicant.
gonna tek down the toffee consultants a peg or two, i can tell ya, if they get stroppy and bullying wif me!

its soooo gonna be fun.

[Varied A]

I certainly know the consultants who like to make a drama out of a ward round - some of them are just eccentric and you learn to like it and get a bit of banter going, the ones who are up themselves generally don't know quite what to do when someone answers back - it's hilarious to watch their reaction when it happens! So good luck Gizmo!

[jonesy]

What I don't understand are doctors who are really reluctant to teach or explain a few things to you when you approach them. Sometimes all I want is a little guidance on something I've seen on a CXR or ABG...and it's like getting blood out of a stone.

Maybe these doctors just aren't confident in their knowledge (unlikely!) or they're just darn lazy! I am not into my clinicals yet...from your experiences i can't wait [rolls eyes]! It's sounds like you have been a bit unlucky with your firm...but i'm sure when you move on, you'll get better docs to work with! Well i hope so anyway!

As for nurses, i've come across some stinkers too but also some nice ones! I think they think that all medical students are programmed to be arrogant and rude; they assume we're all like that just because 0.1% of medical students do behave like this. So as a defence mechanism they act rude to us!

Isn't this an age-old thing?!

I think you should continue to be your own person; polite, accomodating and professional! You can't do anything to change their minds if they are set in their ways...it's their loss!

As a funny story, i have friend who has complete disdain for all nurses, he's a real eccentric character, so none of take this seriously, but he insists when he is consultant, he'll be getting the nurses to make him breakfast and call him sir! I said i'd love to be a fly on the wall in his ward!

I reckon you should just ignore all these w****rs and get down to becoming a great doctor! Excuse my language btw!

Regards
Michelle
PS i also forgot to say that a lot of nurses are friendly and don't have a bad attitude when it comes to students! Hope i haven't offended any nurses!

[Gizmo says -]

I certainly know the consultants who like to make a drama out of a ward round - some of them are just eccentric and you learn to like it and get a bit of banter going, the ones who are up themselves generally don't know quite what to do when someone answers back - it's hilarious to watch their reaction when it happens! So good luck Gizmo!

heehee, VA-Weever. one of ma maccas at SGUL got on the wrong side of his consultant tutor by skivving his clinical and then got chased up the corridor by him!

i'd like to fink i wuldnt skive clinicals (wel too more than a few hehe) but i dont fink i wuld eva be intimidated by them.

ONCe in a tutor group on a short course at georges, this tutor categorically picked on all the asian stoodents in our group (he really looked like he'd had a bad day mind) and since that day, i ave realised i wont let anyone get away wif that kind of attitude again.

[WAMS]

Just remind them that the university (and therefore some of your tutition fees) gives LOTS of money to NHS trusts for consultants to teach medical students. It's in their job description. It's fair enought if doctors are busy and don't have enough time, but if this is happening most of the time, then something isn't right.

Some nurses just have issues. I've done auxillary nursing and know what some of them are like. However, consultants can be just the same. To get around it, I just make a bit of a joke and a wink and then I have them eating out of my hands!! They all say oooh he's such a lovely boy, his mother must be sooo proud, he's not old enough to be a doctor, you've got a lovery accent etc. etc. Then I've got them where I want them! hahahaha!!