Careers!

[Pammy]

I do think there's something wrong with it...
Imagine: if a prospective med student posted here saying he just wanted to study medicine for a laugh and didn't really know what he wanted to do afterwards (and I am sure a med degree would qualify you just as well for a job in finance as a biochem one), all hell would break loose on this forum. The person wouldn't hear the end of it!
Why is it different for any other subject?
If you study a subject because really you don't know what you want to do, you take up a place that someone else could have had - someone who really wanted to do biochemistry. If you study anything at university, the government is paying a lot of money for you. People who chose not to go to uni and instead work hard, long days are paying taxes so that we can go to uni...It doesn't seem fair to me to just use that opportunity because one can't really be bothered to think about what one wants to do in life...There are even many PhD students like that - it's so much easier to get a PhD place than to go through the whole recruitment process for a job. Now, postdocs and lecturers spend an awful lot of time and energy every day (postdocs often spend up to half of their time teaching, rather than on their own research!), to train up people, who then casually mention they don't really care about any of it and are going to never have anything to do with the subject ever again. I've taught at uni for many years, and this kind of thing is really frustrating!

[icecream]

I think with the interview system at medical schools it would be quite difficult for someone who had no desire or interests for medicine, and didn't know what to do in life to pass the interview and be offered a place at medical school..but indeed occasionally the system fails..

if students studied for a degree and then stuck with the set career path..then there wouldn't exactly be so much competition for graduate entry medicine.. indeed many students study a degree thinking its what they want to do, or simply because they are good at the subject.. but later on be inspired to take a different career path... i.e arts and humanities students who do a2m or do the gamsat in order to apply to medicine.

At a-level its really hard to determine what you want to do in life, being in full time education, and only having a part time job or a few days work experience in a few fields doesn't really give that much indication to the job opportunities out there. In certain cases, not having the resources or the right grades at GCSE/ALEVELS would also put medicine out of the picture, and resort to studying an undergraduate degree as an alternative route into medicine.

Its quite a stereotypical view..but none the less rather true that a large proportion of biochemistry (+ biomedicine, etc) students enrolled onto the courses each year are those who have attempted to get into medicine at A-levels, but have either failed to obtain or meet an offer, and are simply using the undergraduate degree as a stepping stone to graduate entry medicine...

similarly.. students will use biochemsitry as a degree to get into graduate training programmes in other fields...such as finance etc, which do not specify on the sort of degree required, but simply that a degree is needed, so why not study a degree in a subject they will enjoy.

[Pammy]

Well if they enjoy a subject (e.g. biochem) so much, then why do they not take a job in it but instead a job in finance? If they enjoy finance so much that they want to work in it, then whey don't they study finance in the first place?
Med students usually know what they want to do and are committed, partly because they have actually taken the time to investigate the career thoroughly - they read books, they do work experience and volunteering, they shadow doctors - even at age 17/18. Why can't other people do the same? Of course some may truly change their minds later (with experience), or realise they weren't as good at their subject as they thought they were, or be under pressure to quickly earn a lot of money to pay off loans, or miss their grades, etc etc. The same even holds for med students. But I still think it is both a waste of resources and unfair on others to go into a subject just for a laugh and know even before you start that you don't really want to work in it after the 3-4 years...I don't really see why medicine should be so special in this respect.

[auden]

But I still think it is both a waste of resources and unfair on others to go into a subject just for a laugh and know even before you start that you don't really want to work in it after the 3-4 years...

I agree with you. But I actually don't think that the combination you describe actually happens very often. You are conflating two things and, in the process, writing off a lot of students as 'wasting taxpayers' money'.

I knew when I read modern history at Oxford that I would never work directly in that field. I didn't want to be a teacher or a professional research historian. But I did know 1) that I loved history and understanding why our country, and other countries, are the way they are today and 2) that a degree in history would teach me critical appraisal skills, research skills, to argue a point and hundreds of other things which have made me both a better employee and a more rounded human being.

After university, I went into marketing - not something I could have read at Oxford even if I'd wanted to, thank goodness - using many of the skills in my degree. I still have the (perhaps old fashioned in these days) view that a degree is fundamentally not a vocational thing, it's about learning to learn and be curious about the world in a productive way. Of course, there are degrees like medicine where they add on some vocational training - but I'm still a fan of the Oxford model where they teach you to think with an academic degree first.

I feel very lucky to have had the education I have had, but I certainly don't feel it was a 'waste' of anyone's money - mine or the taxpayers'. And I certainly wasn't having a laugh when I went.

[Pammy]

You have a point regarding transferrable skills and all that...After all, doing anything provides one with transferrable skills, and a whole degree is bound to be no exception (especially a difficult one...the history/politics/philosophy type exam questions in Oxford never failed to amaze me! - I was once looking at a student's paper when I was invigilating an exam at college, and there was a question on it "does the state exist?") !

I guess I just find it quite hard to understand how someone could be so interested in a subject, but only want to do it for a few years, and then just stop. When I got to the final year of my biochem degree, I was so glad that I had got the "boring" stuff of the 1st year out of way, learnt the "language" of the subject and was right into the really interesting topics, spending my days reading journal articles, analysing papers and planning projects...I enjoyed it so much that I could never have envisaged just stopping it all from one day to the next and substituting my biochem books with, say, finance books. I suppose history is a lot easier to keep on as an interest/hobby by the side though! I can't really imagine having a biochemistry hobby though...Not unless someone gives me a million pounds so I can build a lab in my shed...

[icecream]

You both have very good points, and i agree with auden's views, and feel that for most subjects, with biochemistry included, you don't have to be actively practising it to enjoy reading it for pure interests, and don't neccesarily have to work as an active laboratory based scientist to make the most out of the degree.

Pammy, i hope i have not come across as aggressive as i just simply wanted to discuss my views, and hope i have not offended you at any point in doing so. I understand it may be hard for you to accept biochemsitry students wanting to work in different fields, especially as you are clearly very passionate for the subject; but i think with the number of alevels students failing to get into medical school each year with the amount of competition or missing the grades, more and more students opt to apply for biochemistry these days as a reserve choice/alternate route into medicine, or down to interests rather than for a desire to work in research.

Admitedly i am the failed medical school applicant type i speak of, having an offer at a-level for medicine, and missing my offer, i was left with ABB and knowing i enjoyed biology and chemistry.. i thoroughly enjoyed studying my biochemistry degree, and i honestly found the course very interesting. At one point i even questioned myself as to whether i would be more suited to doing a phd and a job in research; however, after doing my research project in the final year, no matter how much i enjoyed reading around the subject and performing experiments, i know a research career just isn't right for me, and i just can't shake off my desire to study medicine. I don't really consider my degree in biochemistry as a waste of time, but instead as a fantastic opportunity in which i've learnt and matured more over the past 3 years than i ever have through school.

Am i correct in thinking that you were once working in biochemistry and is now hoping to apply to medical school or is currently a medical student?

[Pammy]

Hey,
why would you have thought that you offended me/came across as aggressive? I hope I didn't say anything that made you think that - definitely not the case!
Also I didn't mean to imply that the only job one should go into after a biochem degree is research. There's things like science writing, editing, teaching, patent law, science policy (e.g. civil service), science admin or funding (e.g. working for Wellcome Trust), libraries, science history/philosophy, and of course medicine. You're right, I did a biochem undergrad and will start a medicine GEP this September :-) While I was still passionate about the subject, I realised that I did not want to spend my entire life in a lab...though I hope to continue some research later. Medicine is quite unique in that it contains elements from both sciences and humanities (and, once you specialise, really as much of one or the other as you want - so, e.g., I hope to pick a biochemical specialty...)...In many countries (e.g. US) it is solely a postgrad degree, because anything really is a very good preparation for it. Also, the first 2-3 years of any med degree are almost purely science...So a 6-year med degree doesn't differ that much from 3-year BSc/BA + 4-year GEP...So really, just to clear it up, I think medicine is a really logical thing to do after a science undergrad (although I have to say that not all med students pay biochem the respect that of course I feel it deserves :-) ), and I hope you get that place at med school!

[Pammy]

P.S. Also, as I mentioned above, I think as one "grows up" it is perfectly possible to change your mind...e.g. once I was so passionate about only biochem, now I am even more passionate about med, and am absolutely astounded how it couldn't have occurred to me earlier, as it incorporates both biochem and all my other interests (that I was only doing as hobbies so far). It's mostly due to life experience, various things happening (that I'm not discussing on a public forum...), work experience, etc. Still, there is a reason they give you a tough time at GEP interviews, making you justify why med, and why only now! I think it's the one question that every GEP applicant should think really seriously about, and have a good (and honest!) answer to, as it can possibly make or break the interview.
Anyway, the people I was having a go at was definitely neither of you guys, but the people who say things like "I wasn't sure at all what I wanted to do, thought possibly politics but then that was too hard to get into at uni, so I figured why not biochem as I always liked biology too...can still go into politics later, perhaps, or perhaps not"...

[icecream]

No, no i wasn't trying to imply you were being aggressive, i was just simply worried i might have; as i found this topic quite interesting, and didn't want my posts to come across in the wrong way. i think we will have to agree to disagree on the idea of biochemistry graduates wanting to explore fields outside of science

Congratulations and good luck with your GEP, its probably quite a big step for anyone with a PhD to make, especially when it involves leaving a career you enjoy!! I agree with having to seriously consider a good reason to "why medicine, why now?", i had this question at an interview last year, and i really did not think they were too impressed with my answer; not because i do not have a genuine desire to study medicine, but i think i could have constructed my answer a lot better, it really just came out in lumps of details with ummm and errrrs to fill the gaps.

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With your experience in biochemistry, and being a successful GEP applicant, i was wondering if you could give me some advice on something slightly unrelated to this topic.

I'm just worrying over what i should be doing next year, i have an unconditional offer for a MRes in Biochemical research at IC this september, and was wondering if you could give me an opinion as to whether you believe it would be a year well spent or not. Its a really intersting MRes, and a great opportunity to put theory to hands on experience working through 3 different research projects, but on the other hand, perhaps the year could be better spent differently, either working as an hca, or doing a lot of work experience.

[chicken66]

If they enjoy finance so much that they want to work in it, then whey don't they study finance in the first place?

Random point, but many finance/accountancy companies etc dont actually want employees who have studied the subject at university as they dont want their employees to arrive at work with pre-concieved ideas about the job/theory that they'll learn